Guns used for lawful self defense

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by Blind groper » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:14 am

FBM wrote: * A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]


So much bullshit.

Start with the bullshit above.
162,000 cases per year in which someone almost certainly would have been killed if no gun was used.
Bear in mind that only one on 3 households in the USA has a gun. This means that, if 162,000 occasions someone was saved from a murder because they had a gun, then applied to those who do not have a gun, means 324,000 killings because no one had a gun.

Whoops. Total murders in the USA come to no more than 17,000 per year. Something does not compute.

It is simple really. when you start determining what is true and what is false by interviewing gun nutters you send up with what is false. The quote above is 100% bullshit.

Gun nutters are living in their own fantasy world. They have no idea what is true and what is false. Anyone who interviews them will end up being swamped in total crap. Do not believe!
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by FBM » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:17 am

Reprinted by special permission of Northwestern University School of Law, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, vol. 86, issue 1, 1995.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Armed Resistance to Crime:
The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun*

...

While only 14% of all violent crime victims face offenders armed with guns,[83] 18% of the gun-using victims in our sample faced adversaries with guns.[84] Although the gun defenders usually faced unarmed offenders or offenders with lesser weapons, they were more likely than other victims to face gun-armed criminals. This is consistent with the perception that more desperate circumstances call forth more desperate defensive measures. The findings undercut the view that victims are prone to use guns in "easy" circumstances which are likely to produce favorable outcomes for the victim regardless of their gun use.[85] Instead, gun defenders appear to face more difficult circumstances than other crime victims, not easier ones.


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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by FBM » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:20 am

Blind groper, I'm just trying to avoid the pointless back-and-forth with both sides just repeating unsupported assertions and biased opinions. I'm trying to dig up objective, credible data.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by Blind groper » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:24 am

FBM

That is admirable.
The problem is with surveys and interviews. People who respond in surveys tend to respond according to subjective criteria, not objective. Hence many survey results are very misleading.

It is often really difficult to know which surveys are worth taking note of. I am not sure how to sort them out. It is a minefield.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by FBM » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:29 am

Same source as above:
V. CONCLUSION
If one were committed to rejecting the seemingly overwhelming survey evidence on the frequency of DGU, one could speculate, albeit without any empirical foundation whatsoever, that nearly all of the people reporting such experiences are simply making them up. We feel this is implausible. An R who had actually experienced a DGU would have no difficulty responding with a "no" answer to our DGU question because a "no" response was not followed up by further questioning. On the other hand, lying with a false "yes" answer required a good deal more imagination and energy. Since we asked as many as nineteen questions on the topic, this would entail spontaneously inventing as many as nineteen plausible and internally consistent bits of false information and doing so in a way that gave no hint to experienced interviewers that they were being deceived.

Suppose someone persisted in believing in the anomalous NCVS estimates of DGU frequency and wanted to use a "dishonest respondent" hypothesis to account for estimates from the present survey that are as much as thirty times higher. In order to do this, one would have to suppose that twenty-nine out of every thirty people reporting a DGU in the present survey were lying. There is no precedent in criminological survey research for such an enormous level of intentional and sustained falsification.

The banal and undramatic nature of the reported incidents also undercuts the dishonest respondent speculation. While all the incidents involved a crime, and usually a fairly serious one, only 8% of the alleged gun defenders claimed to have shot their adversaries, and only 24% claim to have fired their gun. If large numbers of Rs were inventing their accounts, one would think they would have created more exciting scenarios.

By this time there seems little legitimate scholarly reason to doubt that defensive gun use is very common in the U.S., and that it probably is substantially more common than criminal gun use. This should not come as a surprise, given that there are far more gun-owning crime victims than there are gun-owning criminals and that victimization is spread out over many different victims, while offending is more concentrated among a relatively small number of offenders.

There is little legitimate reason to continue accepting the NCVS estimates of DGU frequency as even approximately valid. The gross inconsistencies between the NCVS and all other sources of information make it reasonable to suppose that all but a handful of NCVS victims who had used a gun for protection in the reported incidents refrained from mentioning this gun use. In light of evidence on the injury-preventing effectiveness of victim gun use, in some cases where the absence of victim injury is credited to either nonresistance or some unarmed form of resistance, the absence of injury may have actually been due to resistance with a gun, which the victim failed to mention to the interviewer.

The policy implications of these results are straightforward. These findings do not imply anything about whether moderate regulatory measures such as background checks or purchase permits would be desirable. Regulatory measures which do not disarm large shares of the general population would not significantly reduce beneficial defensive uses of firearms by noncriminals. On the other hand, prohibitionist measures, whether aimed at all guns or just at handguns, are aimed at disarming criminals and noncriminals alike. They would therefore discourage and presumably decrease the frequency of DGU among noncriminal crime victims because even minimally effective gun bans would disarm at least some noncriminals. The same would be true of laws which ban gun carrying. In sum, measures that effectively reduce gun availability among the noncriminal majority also would reduce DGUs that otherwise would have saved lives, prevented injuries, thwarted rape attempts, driven off burglars, and helped victims retain their property.

Since as many as 400,000 people a year use guns in situations where the defenders claim that they "almost certainly" saved a life by doing so, this result cannot be dismissed as trivial. If even one-tenth of these people are accurate in their stated perceptions, the number of lives saved by victim use of guns would still exceed the total number of lives taken with guns. It is not possible to know how many lives are actually saved this way, for the simple reason that no one can be certain how crime incidents would have turned out had the participants acted differently than they actually did. But surely this is too serious a matter to simply assume that practically everyone who says he believes he saved a life by using a gun was wrong.

This is also too serious a matter to base conclusions on silly statistics comparing the number of lives taken with guns with the number of criminals killed by victims.[100] Killing a criminal is not a benefit to the victim, but rather a nightmare to be suffered for years afterward. Saving a life through DGU would be a benefit, but this almost never involves killing the criminal; probably fewer than 3,000 criminals are lawfully killed by gun-wielding victims each year,[101] representing only about 1/1000 of the number of DGUs, and less than 1% of the number of purportedly life-saving DGUs. Therefore, the number of justifiable homicides cannot serve as even a rough index of life-saving gun uses. Since this comparison does not involve any measured benefit, it can shed no light on the benefits and costs of keeping guns in the home for protection.[102]
Bg, I've been reading this research paper published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology and their main objective is to point out the flaws in the types of surveys and interviews that you are rightfully skeptical of. It seems to be among the best scholarship available, at least from what I've seen so far. No offense to you or any of the other anti-gun members, but I'd rather base my conclusions on what professional criminologists say.
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by Blind groper » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:51 am

To FBM.

I would also prefer data from professional criminologists - but not the result of surveys. We need proper, official statistics, in which each datum is double checked to make sure it is correct. If you ask a gun enthusiast if he has ever used his guns in legitimate self defense, he is going to want to say yes. While most may be honest, there is always a substantial number of people who are seriously deluded, and there will be a large number of such enthusiasts who will say yes, even when the answer is no.

In addition, we have a problem of definition. When a person uses a gun, is it actually needed? I had a very nasty experience about 2 years ago in which my neighbour, who turned out to be several screws loose, attacked me, both verbally and with his fists. I defended myself both verbally, and by holding him off with my hands. I did not return his punches, restraining myself to simple defense. The situation resolved in due course with me not being harmed.

Anyway, in relation to this thread, I have to wonder what would have happened in that situation if the person being attacked was a gun nutter. At the very least he would have pulled a gun to drive off the attacker, and spent the rest of his life telling anyone who would listen that his gun saved his life. Which would be total crap.

The simple fact is that in most situations when a person is threatened, a gun is not needed. Try telling that to someone like Seth though!
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by FBM » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:57 am

Most of your objections are addressed in that report. It's kinda long, but that's the nature of the beast, I guess.

Edit: No way in hell I'm trying to tell Seth anything. I tried to agree with him once and he slammed me right quick. :hehe:
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by MrJonno » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:16 am

JimC wrote:
MrJonno wrote:The biggest threat to my 'freedom' isnt the government its my neighbour, luckily for me this threat is not as great as it could be (ie having Seth as a neighbour)

No government in history has every killed anyone, its always neighbour turning on neighbour and its a far better idea when this happens they don't have a machine gun to do it with
That is rather nonsensical - there have been many repressive governments that have used violence against their own citizens, and, at the extremes, it is valid for citizens to rebel, under arms if necessary. My disagreement with Seth is simply that, in modern western democracies, a population that is politically active, a free press and a rule of law is what is needed to maintain our current freedoms, not vigilante survivalists hoarding weapons and darkly threatening violence against government decisions they disagree with...
How many people did Hitler or the Nazi leadership personally kill, few if any. It was the postman, the carpenter, the farmer etc that did the killing ie the people. Thats what I mean when I say I fear my neighbour more than the government. The government can't do anything without signficant support from the public
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by JimC » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:22 am

MrJonno wrote:
JimC wrote:
MrJonno wrote:The biggest threat to my 'freedom' isnt the government its my neighbour, luckily for me this threat is not as great as it could be (ie having Seth as a neighbour)

No government in history has every killed anyone, its always neighbour turning on neighbour and its a far better idea when this happens they don't have a machine gun to do it with
That is rather nonsensical - there have been many repressive governments that have used violence against their own citizens, and, at the extremes, it is valid for citizens to rebel, under arms if necessary. My disagreement with Seth is simply that, in modern western democracies, a population that is politically active, a free press and a rule of law is what is needed to maintain our current freedoms, not vigilante survivalists hoarding weapons and darkly threatening violence against government decisions they disagree with...
How many people did Hitler or the Nazi leadership personally kill, few if any. It was the postman, the carpenter, the farmer etc that did the killing ie the people. Thats what I mean when I say I fear my neighbour more than the government. The government can't do anything without signficant support from the public
You're using "Government" in the wrong context. When an oppressive government kills without due process, no one means that the leaders themselves do the deed, but they control sufficient military might to get the job done.

Democratic traditions, the rule of law, an educated public and a free press should be the bulwark against the rise of totalitarian regimes, but in extremis, an armed citizen uprising may be the only answer. However, I consider it vastly unlikely...
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by FBM » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:40 am

Florida State University
Research in Review
In Defense of Self-Defense
By Jeff Worley

A landmark case comes down on the side of Americans' individual right to arm themselves. What the best research has to say about what it all means, and why.

Last year, the U.S. Supreme Court tackled one of the most divisive and hotly debated issues in the past half century: the individual citizen's right to own a gun for personal use.

At issue was the District of Columbia's 1976 ban on handguns, the strictest gun-control law in the country, a law that banned residents from owning handguns, automatic firearms, and high-capacity semi-automatic firearms. The statute also prohibited possession of unregistered firearms.

Dick Anthony Heller, a security guard, challenged the District of Columbia's law, and his lawyers began amassing the strongest arguments from the most highly respected researchers in the country to support their client's challenge. Among those experts identified for support was Gary Kleck, a criminology professor in the College of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University.

"I didn't have any active involvement," says Kleck, sporting a tightly cropped white beard and surrounded in his Hecht House office by books on criminology, guns and violence, and criminal justice ethics. "But after the Heller challenge, I was asked every few weeks or so by his law team for reprints of my articles. They were obviously building the empirical side of the case."

On June 26, in the case of District of Washington, D.C. v. Heller, the Supreme Court ruled 5 to 4 to overturn the handgun ban, effectively interpreting the Second Amendment's language to include a guarantee of the right of individual Americans to bear arms. As it turned out, Kleck's research was cited by Justice Breyer on the losing side of the case. Even so, Kleck's initials are now carved in the oak tree of Supreme Court lore.

"Oddly," says Kleck, "my work was cited by the losing side—the ones who thought the D.C. law should stand. They claimed that because there are various scholarly findings and opinions on the issue, mine being one of them, the court wasn't qualified to adjudicate anything."

This decision pleased Kleck, in part because it repealed a law that simply didn't work—the number of violent deaths in the nation's capital increased after the law was passed. In 1977, the first full year of the ban, the city recorded 192 homicides. The total rose to 223 in 1981, and 482 by 1991. Even as the homicide toll declined in D.C. after 1991, the percentage of killings committed with firearms remained far higher than when the ban was passed. Guns were used in 63 percent of the city's 188 slayings in 1976. Last year, out of 169 homicides, 81 percent were shootings.
Another reason Kleck applauded this decision is that, now, citizens in D.C. will be able to legally arm themselves against criminal attack. Why is this a good thing? Through years of grueling research, Kleck has found strong evidence that crime victims who use guns during a crime are less likely to be injured or killed, and less likely to lose property than crime victims who adopt any other strategy, including non-resistance.

But doesn't this point of view run counter to claims by gun-control advocates that trying to resist a would-be criminal by using a gun defensively will just get you hurt—or killed?

"Yes," Kleck says, "it was often claimed in early pro-control propaganda that when victims attempt to use guns defensively, offenders take guns away from them and use them against the victim. That is false," he says, his tone underlining the word "false." He adds that the only quasi-factual foundation for this claim appears to be the idea that police officers are occasionally killed with their own guns. "This is extremely rare," Kleck says. "Over the period from 1997 through 2006, an annual average of 4.8 police officers in the U.S. were killed with their own guns, out of a total of 665,555 full-time sworn officers in the nation."

In Defense of Self-Defense

(Page 2 of 3)

A "BORINGLY SCHOLARLY" APPROACH

Kleck's ability to easily rattle off such stats comes from three decades of intense research on gun control, gun ownership and crime. And he is quick to point out that he didn't come to the pro side of this debate through his ideology.

"Landing on this side of the issue is the most unnatural thing in the world to me. I didn't come to this stance through my social background—I grew up in the wilds of suburbia, where guns are scarce. I'm a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International USA, and I'm a lifelong Democrat," he says, pausing briefly in this recitation. "I'm not now and have never been a member of the National Rifle Association, Handgun Control, Inc., and I've never received a penny in funding for research from any such organization."

Kleck makes the simple but important point that his way into this pro-handgun position is evidenced-based. "I'm boringly scholarly, having studied this issue for nearly 30 years." The result of this research is impressive by any standards: three books, 50 published articles in journals and in newspapers such as The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal, 10 book chapters, and 40 presented papers. Kleck has published more articles on the defensive use of guns than anyone else on the planet.

And, he adds, he's one of the media's favorite "resource persons."

"Oh yes," he says, laughing, "I'm in quite a few Rolodex files under the heading "pro gun" or "gun-friendly." Sometimes, though, he disappoints pro-gun reporters, because he talks about how complicated these issues are. "Oftentimes, someone will want me to say something loud and clear and direct, like, 'Gun availability is a good thing,' but that's just not the case. Having more guns available is a bad thing if these guns are falling into the hands of criminals."

"The simple fact is, if criminals have guns and use them in attacks on people, the victims are more likely to die." It's the "if" that Kleck has explored in hammering detail in his research.

DISARM AT OUR PERIL?

It's no news flash, Kleck says, that firearms are heavily involved in crime in America, especially homicide.

"In 2006, about 11,600 homicides were committed by criminals armed with guns, claiming 68 percent of all homicides," he says. Based on data from the National Criminal Victimization Survey (NCVS), as many as 500,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States in 2006 by offenders armed with guns, and around 26 percent of robberies and 7 percent of assaults were committed by gun-armed offenders.

These facts have led many people to conclude that America's high rate of gun ownership must be at least partially responsible for the nation's high rates of violence, or at least its high homicide rate, says Kleck, adding that this belief in a causal effect of gun levels on violent crime rates has, in turn, led many to conclude that limiting the availability of guns would substantially reduce violent crime, especially the murder rate.

"What's not so widely known, though, is that large numbers of crime victims in America also use guns in the course of crimes (but) in self-defense," says Kleck.

Based on 16 national surveys of samples of the U.S. population, he continues, the evidence indicates that guns are used by victims in self-protection more often than crimes are committed by offenders using guns. Victims used guns defensively two to two-and-a-half million times in 1993, for example, compared to about 850,000 crimes in which offenders possessed guns.


But aren't these gun-toting would-be victims risking injury or death? By the time most Americans are adults, they've heard the popular wisdom— if you try to use a gun to protect yourself, you'll only get hurt.

"Well, there was a lot of early research that claimed this was the case," says Kleck, "but this research was based on a basic error—the error of what happened first." Researchers reported instances of people being hurt and using guns defensively, but these were cases where someone was first hurt and then used the gun for self-protection, he explains. "It wasn't using the gun that got them hurt. And once this flaw in the research was fixed, it was found that people who use guns for protection are almost never injured after that."

There's also evidence to support the common-sense belief that many criminals are deterred from robbery attempts in the first place by the possibility of victims using guns against them. "Criminals interviewed in prison indicate that they have refrained from committing crimes because they believed a potential victim might have a gun," Kleck said.


Evidence also supports the hypothesis that U.S. burglars are careful to avoid residences where victims are home because they fear being shot—an estimated 46 percent of the citizens in the United States own firearms, in contrast to, for example, England, where handgun ownership was banned in 1997. While 43 percent of British residential burglaries are committed while victims are at home, only 9 percent of residential burglaries in the United States are committed under such circumstances.

"None of this evidence is strong or decisive," Kleck is quick to point out. "But we can say it is consistent with the hypothesis that criminals are deterred from attempting some crimes by the possibility of being on the wrong side of a gun."

Defensive gun use by crime victims is not only effective in preventing injury, but also in preventing property loss, Kleck has found. Protection of body and property are usually achieved without the victim shooting the gun and are almost always achieved without wounding or killing the criminal. "Only 24 percent of gun defenders even fired the gun (including warning shots), only 16 percent tried to shoot the perpetrator, and at most 8 percent wounded the offender," Kleck points out.

But don't guns provoke the criminal? What about the old joke punch line: Don't shoot the bear again, you'll just make him mad.

Kleck laughs. "Just not true. Victim defensive use of guns almost never angers or otherwise provokes offenders into attacking and injuring the resisting victims. It's extremely rare that once a victim shows or uses a gun, he is injured."

In any case, Kleck says, summarizing this crime scenario, it is clear that regardless of whether victim gun use occasionally provokes the offender the net effect of victim gun use is to reduce the likelihood that the offender will hurt the victim. In a 2004 study, Kleck and his FSU colleague, Mark Gertz, a professor of criminology, analyzed data from the NCVS and found that among 45 sample cases of victims who used a gun to attack the offender, none were injured after using the gun, and of 202 sample cases of victims who used a gun to threaten the offender, just 7.7 percent were injured after using the gun.

In Defense of Self-Defense

(Page 3 of 3)

THE DEADLY BARGAIN

Most U.S. gun laws are aimed largely or solely at handguns. Why is this the case, and is singling out handguns an effective policy?

"One of the political temptations of handgun-only control is that it appears to be a satisfactory compromise between doing nothing about gun violence, which would alienate pro-control voters, and restricting all gun types, which would alienate many long gun owners," Kleck states. "I think it's a very bad idea to have stricter controls over handguns than long guns, because such controls inadvertently encourage the substitution of long guns if they are less regulated. Kleck envisions the scenario of a convicted felon buying a gun at a dealership.

Felon: "Hey, give me that .38 over there, OK?"

Gun dealer: "Great—Let's run you through a background check."

Felon: "Oh, never mind. I guess I want that shotgun over there instead."

"Well, you haven't prevented him from getting a gun," Kleck says pointedly. "You've basically shifted him from the least lethal variety of gun, the handgun, and the hardest to aim accurately, to a much more lethal weapon—more accurate and though not as concealable, concealable enough."

Kleck explains: "He can saw off part of the barrel and the stock in 10 minutes with a hacksaw and have something that'll look just fine underneath a raincoat or a sports coat," adding that now there would be a man on the street who has a gun that is several times more likely to kill if he shoots anybody with it.

And Kleck's view is backed with some preliminary research he's done. He has run statistical simulations that suggest a result of criminals substituting long guns for handguns would be more homicides. "A clear policy recommendation follows from what should be the first principle of weapons regulations: Never place restrictions on a subcategory of weapons without also placing restrictions at least as stringent on more deadly, easily substituted alternative weapons," Kleck states strongly.

But while decision-makers ponder policy, the facts remain grim: more than 80 people die every day in the United States from gun violence, and America lives with one of the world's worst murder records.

For Kleck, that makes both impassioned and reasoned study and debate of gun laws and violence all the more imperative. Most of all, he wants decision-makers to base policy decisions on research, not emotion. He wants them to think critically about how ineffective gun laws could produce unintended but perhaps deadly results. He asks: "Do we really want to keep a gun out of the hands of someone who might someday need it to defend his—and his family's—life"?


http://rinr.fsu.edu/issues/2009winter/cover01_a.asp
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by MrJonno » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:18 pm

Democratic traditions, the rule of law, an educated public and a free press should be the bulwark against the rise of totalitarian regimes, but in extremis, an armed citizen uprising may be the only answer. However, I consider it vastly unlikely...
Except when the armed citizen is the totalitarian regime
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by amused » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:27 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/04/politics/ ... ?hpt=hp_c2
"It's easier to be suspicious," says Geoffrey Vaughan, a political science professor at Assumption College in Worcester, Massachusetts. "There is something attractive in thinking that you know something, that you haven't bought into the mass public opinion."

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by laklak » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:31 pm

Blind groper wrote:FBM

There are more than 300 million people in the USA. If 10,000 were subject to a home invasion once in their life, that is still only 0.003%.
I can't tell you the exact numbers. I tried to google it, but it appears this is not data that is officially collected. The reason the authorities do not specifically collect data on home invasions, is that it is a relatively unusual crime.
That's great unless you're one of the 0.003%. I woke up one morning with half the vision gone in one eye, NAION (Nonateritic anterior ischemic optic neuropathy). About 6000 cases a year, I'd never heard of it before. Statistics are great until you're one of them.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by Blind groper » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:12 pm

To FBM

On your references to Kleck.

He states that hand guns should not be restricted since that just sends a criminal to buying a long gun. That is fallaceous. The main advantages of a hand gun to a criminal are portability and concealability. A long gun sacrifices these. A criminal who want to take a gun to a crime scene will not take a long gun, because it is too damn obvious. If a person who is known to the police is walking in public carrying a long gun, he is rather likely to be pulled up.

Hand guns are the problem. Half of all US murders and 60% of all suicides. If a hand gun is in the home, it increases risk of spouse killing spouse by 400% and increases the risk of a family member committing suicide by a similar amount. Why is it that the gun enthusiasts here cannot see that as a problem? I have no problem with long guns, and if someone is paranoid about a criminal invading his home, and wants a gun for defense, let him buy a sporting rifle or shotgun. It is actually better for defense, anyway.
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FBM
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Re: Guns used for lawful self defense

Post by FBM » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:25 pm

..."Kleck explains: "He can saw off part of the barrel and the stock in 10 minutes with a hacksaw and have something that'll look just fine underneath a raincoat or a sports coat," adding that now there would be a man on the street who has a gun that is several times more likely to kill if he shoots anybody with it.

And Kleck's view is backed with some preliminary research he's done. He has run statistical simulations that suggest a result of criminals substituting long guns for handguns would be more homicides. "A clear policy recommendation follows from what should be the first principle of weapons regulations: Never place restrictions on a subcategory of weapons without also placing restrictions at least as stringent on more deadly, easily substituted alternative weapons," Kleck states strongly."

I've shot sawed-off shotguns that were shorter than some of the pistols I've owned. If you want to buy a gun without having to sign your name to anything, that's the way to go.
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