Skepchick Warring with Dawkins Again

[Rum]

I subscribe to this too. My own moral code would prevent me form theft except in exceptional circumstances (to pay for food for family might be one).

[Coito ergo sum]

The software piracy thing is more of a function of the thing being "stolen" is not identified as a "thing" at all.

It's amazing how people really try to persuade themselves that stealing intellectual property is somehow different to shoplifting.

It's factually different and it's a different legal concept. Stealing intellectual property is really violating someone's trademark or copyright. If you shoplift a DVD, you steal the physical CD. If you download a copy of a song, you violate a copyright. Those are completely different things.

Anyway I do pirate stuff occassionaly not because I think its morally right but because I am unlikely to get caught, I would also steal a nice new TV if I thought the chances of me being caught were zero (and I could carry it)

Well, it's comparatively recent in legal history to even protect copyright. It was not traditionally, under English common law for example, to have a property interest in a song you wrote. The first copyright law was the Statute of Anne in 1710 which for the first time protected printers of books. It only covered copying of books, and not derivative works or translations, etc. Newspapers, to this day, are not covered and you can copy them all you want.

I mean -- it's plainly and obviously a different animal, what with the concept of "fair use.' Just because you write a play or a song, for example, doesn't mean I can't copy it. If someone gives me a DVD -- it becomes mine and I can make copies of it and put it on my computer, etc. I can also make 'fair use" of copyrighted material for scholarly, educational and other use, etc. Look at what people do here all the time -- copying photos, posting copyrighted material from other websites -- all for discussion and debate -- we don't pay for that stuff. Yet we're taking their photos and whatnot. Stealing? Of course not -- fair use. It's legal. You don't have that with shoplifting sodas from the store.

The big publishing houses and the music industry would have you believe it's exactly like shoplifting, but the fact that you buy into just means you've been sold their bill of goods.

[Jason]

I pirate just about everything. The only software I've paid for in the last.. 10 years would be FilterForge Professional (for Photoshop - which I pirated). It cost about $300. It causes me no sleepless nights.

Wait.. I actually bought the first two STALKER games from Steam - which would not work despite all my efforts and Steam's useless tech support so I ended up getting pirated copies that did work.

[MrJonno]

Copyright devloped from counterfeiting which has been around as long as currency,it was taken so seriously it could carry the death penalty ( I think it still does in China), the fact that counterfeiting in modern times produced perfect copies isnt particuarly important the principle is the same

[Coito ergo sum]

Copyright devloped from counterfeiting which has been around as long as currency,it was taken so seriously it could carry the death penalty ( I think it still does in China), the fact that counterfeiting in modern times produced perfect copies isnt particuarly important the principle is the same

It also has nothing to do with the issue of it being the same as shoplifting. It isn't the same, and I've explained why.

You don't, for example, have fair use rights in a television at a store. You do, however, have fair use rights on people's intellectual property, including songs, trademarks, copyrighted materials, movies, etc. You can, lawfully, copy stuff off the television and keep it. that's why we have home DVD recorders -- to copy stuff. If you can't copy other people's intellectual property - if that's stealing -- then DVR-ing Survivor and watching it later is stealing. Or, having someone else download a movie from Netflix and watching it with them is stealing. Or, having them make a copy of the latest Bon Jovi CD and letting you listen to it is stealing. And, piping your CD collection through speakers in your house for people to listen to at party is stealing.

[MrJonno]

Regarding Fair Use as a copyright term its very liberal in the US and actually extremely restrictive in the UK.

Of course it relies on one thing people are fundamentally not and thats fair and honest. Human beings are as dishonest and as crooked as they can get away with . It doesnt take god to be good but it certainly takes a policeman with a big stick

[Coito ergo sum]

Regarding Fair Use as a copyright term its very liberal in the US and actually extremely restrictive in the UK.

but it still exists, and you still can take copyrighted material and post it on this forum for discussion and debate.

Of course it relies on one thing people are fundamentally not and thats fair and honest. Human beings are as dishonest and as crooked as they can get away with . It doesnt take god to be good but it certainly takes a policeman with a big stick

This has not been my experience with people in general.

[Audley Strange]

Good point CES. Technically you can't legally lend a book to your friend and yet we have libraries. The problem isn't about copyright as far as I can see although it is claimed to be. Rather the problem is that distribution companies, who had too much power over the market, have suddenly found themselves playing catch-up with the very people they should be taking advice from. People will always pirate stuff, but when it gets to the stage where something like "A Game of Thrones." has more people pirating an episode an hour after it airs that actually watch it when it's on. That is free, good quality and without adverts and immediate, in comparison to HBO releasing the DVD's a month before the next season, puts HBO at a disadvantage, not because of breach of copyright. In fact there is a site called "HBO please take my money" because people wish they had the opportunity of watching shows without a costly package subscription.

My house has a room filled with old crap, albums comics etc. However it is much quicker for me to go and download a copy of an album that I own than it is to go search for it and recode it from vinyl to mp3.

It's not a copyright problem, it is a distribution problem and rather than confront the fact that they are increasingly unnecessary dinosaurs who need to move with the times, these distribution companies have essentially called in the lawyers. Not only against individuals, but they are shitting themselves about online distribution networks like Amazon.

They are all about a free market until someone fucks with their actual privilege.

Fuck them.

[Seabass]

Regarding Fair Use as a copyright term its very liberal in the US and actually extremely restrictive in the UK.

Of course it relies on one thing people are fundamentally not and thats fair and honest. Human beings are as dishonest and as crooked as they can get away with . It doesnt take god to be good but it certainly takes a policeman with a big stick

Man, you must have grown up in a really shitty neighborhood!

[MrJonno]

A free market is someone selling something for whatever price or conditions that they want and the consumer having a choice whether to buy it or not.

What a free market isnt is the consumer not wanting to buy something at the price/condition so deciding to steal it


I'm all for restrictions on the free market when it comes to things that are vital for people to survive, food,water,electricity , health care but when it comes to luxury goods which entertainment is then the market really can be left to it

[MrJonno]

Regarding Fair Use as a copyright term its very liberal in the US and actually extremely restrictive in the UK.

Of course it relies on one thing people are fundamentally not and thats fair and honest. Human beings are as dishonest and as crooked as they can get away with . It doesnt take god to be good but it certainly takes a policeman with a big stick

Man, you must have grown up in a really shitty neighborhood!

Just lived a bit and worked in a sales environment

I suppose you trust the average member of the public to carry a gun and be impartial on a jury?

[Coito ergo sum]

Regarding Fair Use as a copyright term its very liberal in the US and actually extremely restrictive in the UK.

Of course it relies on one thing people are fundamentally not and thats fair and honest. Human beings are as dishonest and as crooked as they can get away with . It doesnt take god to be good but it certainly takes a policeman with a big stick

Man, you must have grown up in a really shitty neighborhood!

Just lived a bit and worked in a sales environment

I suppose you trust the average member of the public to carry a gun and be impartial on a jury?

The "average?" Yes, absolutely. The vast majority are trustworthy to carry a gun, and will try to be impartial on a jury.

[Coito ergo sum]

Good point CES. Technically you can't legally lend a book to your friend and yet we have libraries.

No, see - technically, you CAN lend a book to a friend, or give a book to a friend, or even sell the book to a friend. You can buy books from a bookstore and give them away anytime you want. You can even photocopy portions of a book to attach as an exhibit to a school paper and such.

The problem isn't about copyright as far as I can see although it is claimed to be. Rather the problem is that distribution companies, who had too much power over the market, have suddenly found themselves playing catch-up with the very people they should be taking advice from. People will always pirate stuff, but when it gets to the stage where something like "A Game of Thrones." has more people pirating an episode an hour after it airs that actually watch it when it's on. That is free, good quality and without adverts and immediate, in comparison to HBO releasing the DVD's a month before the next season, puts HBO at a disadvantage, not because of breach of copyright. In fact there is a site called "HBO please take my money" because people wish they had the opportunity of watching shows without a costly package subscription.

My house has a room filled with old crap, albums comics etc. However it is much quicker for me to go and download a copy of an album that I own than it is to go search for it and recode it from vinyl to mp3.

It's not a copyright problem, it is a distribution problem and rather than confront the fact that they are increasingly unnecessary dinosaurs who need to move with the times, these distribution companies have essentially called in the lawyers. Not only against individuals, but they are shitting themselves about online distribution networks like Amazon.

They are all about a free market until someone fucks with their actual privilege.

Fuck them.

Yep. If they don't want me to copy their shit, then they should put encryption protection that will prevent me from copying it. They just don't want to go through the trouble.

[MrJonno]

The "average?" Yes, absolutely. The vast majority are trustworthy to carry a gun, and will try to be impartial on a jury.

And thats pretty much comes down to why our politics are different, I don't know a good alternative to giving people the vote but there are clear alternatives to allowing people to carry a gun and the jury system is an abomination which most sensible countries don't use

[Audley Strange]

A free market is someone selling something for whatever price or conditions that they want and the consumer having a choice whether to buy it or not.

What a free market isnt is the consumer not wanting to buy something at the price/condition so deciding to steal it


I'm all for restrictions on the free market when it comes to things that are vital for people to survive, food,water,electricity , health care but when it comes to luxury goods which entertainment is then the market really can be left to it

Ass backwards as usual. I'm saying many distribution companies ARE interfering in the Free Market, by attempting to bring in regulations that benefit them over new sources of distribution and that those people are the very clowns who were all for no regulation when it meant they made larger profits.

If I read a friends copy of a book, I'm not stealing anything. If I go to a library and borrow a CD or DVD, I'm not stealing anything. If I download a movie I want to see that is out of stock in the stores and unavailable from legit sources, I'm not stealing anything, they have not made it available to steal. Again, if they don't want people doing it, they should move with the times. Itunes, Steam, Amazon, Audible, Netflix, these are all companies who have had trouble with the old school distribution networks attempting to stifle their businesses.

I could get right into this, but what's the point?