Fuckwitted Brit rescue personnel let man drown

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

Maybe they let him drown because they thought he was an American (Seth?).

[Seth]

How is not owning the means of production mean you are any more reliant on the government than anyone else (we are all totally reliant on a functional government for survival rich or poor).

Dunno, you'd have to ask Marx, it's his term. And it's not that people are reliant upon the existence of government that's important, it's that they are DEPENDENT upon government to fund their daily needs. You still have never been able to distinguish between the legitimate regulatory/police power of government and the redistributive functions of socialism. Governments are instituted among men to secure the fruits of liberty, not to provide sustenance and support. A government regulation that prevents one person from taking your property without your permission or from enslaving you to labor for him is a legitimate function of government. A government regulation that enslaves one person and takes his property without his permission to provide for your needs is not a legitimate function of government.

Someday perhaps you will learn the distinction, but I'm doubtful.

I suspect what you mean is anyone doesnt have a large amount of money inherited of their parents and actually has to work for a living. While I certainly do wish all clothes were given to me by the state is it would stop my wife going through hundreds of clothes shops all selling the same shit I don't live in such a society

We the people determine what our needs are and its a national health service and a decent welfare state is what we want and its the role of the government to provide it

When you do it by taking the labor and property of others against their will to serve that "need" you are not performing a legitimate function of government, you have turned government into a tyrant, a despot and a slave-master.

You do not get to determine how or for whom I labor or how I spend my money, and this remains true regardless of how many people in the society want a piece of my labor or property. None of them have any right to it, nor do all of them as a collective have any right to it. It's mine. You can't have it. Even if you starve to death or die of cancer my property is not yours to dispose of as you see fit, even (and especially) through the expedient of government power and force. It's not yours, it's mine. Your needs or desires to make use of my property is inferior to my right to dispose of it my way. Try to take it and I will defend my right to dispose of my labor and property as I see fit using whatever tools and degree of force is required to achieve success, up to and including deadly physical force. When you, the individual tries to steal what is mine, it's called robbery. Commissioning the government to do it for you doesn't make it any less of a crime.

Now, on the other hand, if I make use of some amenity or service provided by the government, then I have an obligation and a duty to pay for my share and use of that amenity or service, and the government has the authority to force me to pay my fair share of providing the services and amenities that government provides. I willingly pay for what I use or consume, but I refuse to pay for what YOU use or consume, no matter how much you might want me to do so.

That's just the way it is, and anything else is tyranny, despotism, slavery and robbery, which any and all men may rightfully resist with any and all force available to them.

[MrJonno]

You do not get to determine how or for whom I labor or how I spend my money, and this remains true regardless of how many people in the society want a piece of my labor or property. None of them have any right to it, nor do all of them as a collective have any right to it. It's mine. You can't have it. Even if you starve to death or die of cancer my property is not yours to dispose of as you see fit, even (and especially) through the expedient of government power and force. It's not yours, it's mine. Your needs or desires to make use of my property is inferior to my right to dispose of it my way. Try to take it and I will defend my right to dispose of my labor and property as I see fit using whatever tools and degree of force is required to achieve success, up to and including deadly physical force. When you, the individual tries to steal what is mine, it's called robbery. Commissioning the government to do it for you doesn't make it any less of a crime.

So wrong, morals are a luxury that people who have food have medical care They simply don't exist in life or death circumstances

If I am hungry and there is no other way of obtain food there is nothing immoral in taking any action whatsoever to change this including violence through I obviously wouldnt do this on my own because being hungry doesnt make you stupid.

[eXcommunicate]

That's just the way it is, and anything else is tyranny, despotism, slavery and robbery, which any and all men may rightfully resist with any and all force available to them.

Cute. Am I to discern that you have taken up arms against this tyrannical statist regime? This method of resistance is available to you. Or do you find bitching on Internet forums a more "forceful" method of resistance?

[MrJonno]

That's just the way it is, and anything else is tyranny, despotism, slavery and robbery, which any and all men may rightfully resist with any and all force available to them.

Cute. Am I to discern that you have taken up arms against this tyrannical statist regime? This method of resistance is available to you. Or do you find bitching on Internet forums a more "forceful" method of resistance?

Actually the only method that actually works is turn out in large numbers (unarmed), call a general strike, accept that some of you may be shot but hopefully the military will join you and the govermenet will fall

Thats generally the only way you can bring down a government, its not like a few peasants with ego trips and handguns makes a lot of difference

[mistermack]

I don't think the coroner would have recorded a verdict of accidental death if the court felt that the death could have been partly or wholly due to the inaction of the fire service or police. They have the option of an open verdict available. Plus, the coroner's comments about checking their policies/procedures was pretty tame, much more tame than you'd expect if the coroner felt their inaction had contributed to the man's death.

You seem to put an awful lot of faith in Coroners. I've read the most stupid statements coming from inquests. Usually the old 20/20 hindsight that we all possess, but coroners have in truck loads.

This guy was faced with someone who can't be brought back, and firemen who are completely covered by "the book". He could have criticised, but it would only blow up in his face. And the coroner might be a completely spineless clod. They get everywhere.

I would like to know why fire engines don't have a simple rope, and a simple flotation device.
It would take less effort than writing up all that crap about ankle depth and level 2 training.

How could a fireman drown, if he had a rope round his waist, and even just a beach rubber ring?
Is this the first case of drowning they've ever handled?

[Seth]

That's just the way it is, and anything else is tyranny, despotism, slavery and robbery, which any and all men may rightfully resist with any and all force available to them.

Cute. Am I to discern that you have taken up arms against this tyrannical statist regime? This method of resistance is available to you. Or do you find bitching on Internet forums a more "forceful" method of resistance?

Why would I be so stupid as to admit it if I were?

[Hermit]

This is what happens under Socialism. Nobody steps up because there's no point in doing so. There's no reward, only sanction and opprobrium for being the nail standing above the rest, which is to be hammered down into proletarian conformity lest others get the idea that individualism will be permitted.

Well, it gave me a giggle anyway.

[mistermack]

Why would I be so stupid as to admit it if I were?

Oh dear.
It's usually how, not why.

[eXcommunicate]

Why would I be so stupid as to admit it if I were?

You aren't a real revolutionary, Seth. You spend too much time trolling atheist web forums.

[MrJonno]

Why would I be so stupid as to admit it if I were?

You aren't a real revolutionary, Seth. You spend too much time trolling atheist web forums.

Well revolutionaries motivate people , and to be honest that is something Seth is very good at through probably not in the way he would like

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why would I be so stupid as to admit it if I were?

You aren't a real revolutionary, Seth. You spend too much time trolling atheist web forums.

Well revolutionaries motivate people , and to be honest that is something Seth is very good at through probably not in the way he would like

Actually, that would just to his liking.

[Ronja]

mistermack, this post contains a personal attack on another Rationalia member. This is a reminder to stay within out rules.

[Warren Dew]

I absolutely agree with Seth about this incident. It was cowardice in the extreme, and to hide behind health and safety is disgusting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17131333

Thanks.

So a policeman and a paramedic wanted to go in and try to rescue the guy, who wasn't responding - presumaby to yells, since nobody had touched him. The would be rescuers were prevented by a fire chief who didn't want people going into water more than "half a boot" deep. Great.

It does seem like it's the working class people who had the right instincts here, and the supervisors that were the problem.

[Robert_S]

I absolutely agree with Seth about this incident. It was cowardice in the extreme, and to hide behind health and safety is disgusting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17131333

Thanks.

So a policeman and a paramedic wanted to go in and try to rescue the guy, who wasn't responding - presumaby to yells, since nobody had touched him. The would be rescuers were prevented by a fire chief who didn't want people going into water more than "half a boot" deep. Great.

It does seem like it's the working class people who had the right instincts here, and the supervisors that were the problem.

Corporate and government bureaucrats, I've been frustrated by them both.