A secular debate about adultery

[lordpasternack]

I'd add only at this point, dj, that there are often - as I've already stated - very strong pressures to be surreptitious if you can't resist a bit on the side, for whatever reason. Kids, for a start. Guys just get the short straw when it comes to custody after divorce or separation, and may sit in loveless marriages, occasionally 'acting out' under the radar.

It's also even a subject where I'm willing to stray from my usual quixotic ideals and even suggest the old maxim that what people don't know can't hurt them. Provided protection is used (and it works) - there's no real conceivable long-term harm done to anyone else from any particular session or fling someone has in secret with anyone. Unless it leads to the formation of a new relationship that you might want to pursue full-time and ditch the other - but that's another matter. Also, there's the fact that we only live once. I suppose I'd rather be inclined to be hedonistic, where I'm not directly harming others. I'm possibly rationalising it - and not even so much for myself either, as for the genuinely nice guys I've spent quality time with. Maybe it's just that I'm incorrigible…

[dj357]

Hehe, I'm going to go with that last bit but only because I can totally sympathise Yes, I would agree that, all things being equal, there would be no harm in a secret thing and I'd even go so far as to say that in so far as it does not affect the primary relationship in any way the primary partner doesn't actually have a right to know outside the bounds of a pre-existing agreement to be monogamous.

Personally my only hang-up is I know, and it's even a current issue with a slightly-related matter when I allow myself to dwell on it even though I was technically single at the time, that I would be riddled with guilt in a situation such as that :s

[Thinking Aloud]

"What they don't know can't hurt them," only works so long as they don't know. Where there's an established trust between the long-term partners, the "transgressor" from that point on has to live with the knowledge he/she has violated that trust and is hiding something; and if the other partner were to find out later, the hurt from loss of trust and lack of honesty could easily be so much greater than that of the act itself.

Sure, in a rational world no-one should have a right to demand their long-term partner not hide anything from them, or keep secrets, but such things build insecurities, and I think that most people in long-term relationships look for some sort of security.

[.Morticia.]

Why be secret?

Jealousy is a strange thing. My mother in law was jealous of me marrying her son. That's weird.

But how much weirder is than 'normal' jealousy?

Everyday our companions share time and have relatiosnhips of some kind or another with other people. At work, at school, in the wider society. We understand that we can't fulfill ALL a person's needs ourselves .

So why not have the same attitude and feeling about more intimate relationships?

[dj357]

Why be secret?

Jealousy is a strange thing. My mother in law was jealous of me marrying her son. That's weird.

But how much weirder is than 'normal' jealousy?

Everyday our companions share time and have relatiosnhips of some kind or another with other people. At work, at school, in the wider society. We understand that we can't fulfill ALL a person's needs ourselves .

So why not have the same attitude and feeling about more intimate relationships?

I agree, I personally don't believe that monogamy is the best policy, and even the best suited people don't fulfil each other's each and every need need but again it's all about honesty and loyalty and if you say, yes I want to/will be monogamous with you then you're bound insofar as you value that agreement.

[Feck]

Why be secret?

Jealousy is a strange thing. My mother in law was jealous of me marrying her son. That's weird.

But how much weirder is than 'normal' jealousy?

Everyday our companions share time and have relatiosnhips of some kind or another with other people. At work, at school, in the wider society. We understand that we can't fulfill ALL a person's needs ourselves .

So why not have the same attitude and feeling about more intimate relationships?

Jealousy is inbuilt I don't think it's a good thing but I think most people suffer from it at an animal level and I've seen it tear more people apart than hold together .

[dj357]

Why be secret?

Jealousy is a strange thing. My mother in law was jealous of me marrying her son. That's weird.

But how much weirder is than 'normal' jealousy?

Everyday our companions share time and have relatiosnhips of some kind or another with other people. At work, at school, in the wider society. We understand that we can't fulfill ALL a person's needs ourselves .

So why not have the same attitude and feeling about more intimate relationships?

Jealousy is inbuilt I don't think it's a good thing but I think most people suffer from it at an animal level and I've seen it tear more people apart than hold together .

Like most things in life the true mission in being human is to overcome our inbuilt tendencies and master them with rational thought. As is plainly evidenced by the number of believers around the world, a lot of people are very unsuccessful in this regard

[.Morticia.]

Does it always have to be about sex?

Personally, I found the worst betrayals were in the non - sex aspects of my broked up marriage.

[Svartalf]

Maybe, but sex is a pretty good indicator... My sex life was great until I discovered that my ex was a bitch of the worst sort... after that, for some reason, I no longer lusted for her.

[Thinking Aloud]

Does it always have to be about sex?

Of course not - but since we're skirting around the topic of adultery, I guess we're focussing a little more on that.

[.Morticia.]

Does it always have to be about sex?

Of course not - but since we're skirting around the topic of adultery, I guess we're focussing a little more on that.

We are just echoing the societal and religious obsession with sex and allowing 'them' to dominate how we think of relationships, how we prioritise different aspects of human interaction and ideas of monogamy and fidelity and most importantly, the dialogue.

[hadespussercats]

But would/should there be jealousy? Can you imagine a future when people don't feel 'ownership' of companions and jealousy is unheard of.

Myself, why would I feel hurt that someone I love loves someone else too? If they are happy that's what counts to me. ( and not being abusive, but that's a given )

Further and apropos of nothing , in some states in the US adultery is illegal.

North AmericaIn the United States, laws vary from state to state. In those states where adultery is still on the statute book (although rarely prosecuted), penalties vary from life sentence (Michigan),[54] to a fine of $10 (Maryland), to a Class I felony (Wisconsin).[55] In the U.S. Military, adultery is a potential court-martial offense.[16] The enforceability of adultery laws in the United States is unclear following Supreme Court decisions since 1965 relating to privacy and sexual intimacy of consenting adults.[56] However, occasional prosecutions do occur.[57]

( from wiki )

Whether or not there should be jealousy isn't the issue for me. Jealousy exists, and my husband and I have chosen our way of dealing with it. We want to be exclusive-- it makes each of us feel cherished and special to be exclusive (and I'm not putting words in my husband's mouth here-- we've talked extensively about this over the years.)

If you feel differently, there's nothing better or worse about your point of view-- I assume you seek partners who feel the same way. Even if you don't, it's not any of my business (For that reason, I have real issues with adultery laws.)

Why does jealousy exist? What is it's origins?

Why does jealousy exist? Hell if I know. The existence of sexual jealousy certainly influenced my husband's and my decision to be monogamous, but it certainly wasn't the only factor-- or even the leading one. You're right-- different people feel differently. Ain't it great?

[hadespussercats]

Well that one is a tad obvious I was more wondering specifics such as lack of sexual intimacy, loss of emotional connection etc... It would also be very interesting to see a breakdown on the gender percentages. My gut feeling is that men would be more prominent on the list but one never can tell.

I wouldn't be so sure men lead the list. They certainly bear the burden/enjoy the benefits of a reputation for being dogs when it comes to sex and commitment, but let's face it-- these men are cheating with someone, and I doubt Lordpasternack can keep up with the whole demand.

I think the reason it's often called cheating is because people feel a similar thrill of getting away with something secret and taboo as they might shoplifting, or winning money by cheating at cards. The thrill of trying to get away with something heightens the sexual thrill. Of course, there could be any number of influences at work-- feeling neglected/undesired by one's spouse, falling out of love but unwilling or unable to change the bad situation in a more forthright way, falling desperately in love/lust with someone else, and making a bad decision under the intoxicating influence of those emotions.

And I'm sorry, but cheating on someone is a bad decision. It's lying to someone you at least at one point respected enough to enter into a commitment with. This is a separate issue from whether or not that sort of decision is anyone else's business, and decidedly a separate issue from open relationships, French marriages, polyamory, etc., which are agreements of different sorts, that don't involve promising someone something and then breaking that promise secretly.

As for doing away with marriage, why is that necessary? If you don't want to be married, don't get married. That seems simple enough, and doesn't involve depriving other people of a lifestyle they're happy with.

[lordpasternack]

..let's face it-- these men are cheating with someone, and I doubt Lordpasternack can keep up with the whole demand.

Yeah - the mind is willing, but the body is tender and sore!

[hadespussercats]

Gotta give those thighs a rest once in a while, or you cramp up.