"Satan doesnt want people talking about God."

[MrFungus420]

Actually, if there were such a being as Satan, I would think he'd want people talking about god - asking questions, pointing out inconsistencies, and the like. It's God who seems to hate questions. After reading the bible, I don't recall god praising thinking or intellectual pursuits.

He is supposedly punishing the entirety of humanity because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

God lied to Adam to prevent Adam gaining knowledge. The Serpent told Eve the truth and encouraged the pursuit of knowledge.

I find the Serpent to be the more laudable of the two.

[Pappa]

Actually, if there were such a being as Satan, I would think he'd want people talking about god - asking questions, pointing out inconsistencies, and the like. It's God who seems to hate questions. After reading the bible, I don't recall god praising thinking or intellectual pursuits.

He is supposedly punishing the entirety of humanity because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

God lied to Adam to prevent Adam gaining knowledge. The Serpent told Eve the truth and encouraged the pursuit of knowledge.

I find the Serpent to be the more laudable of the two.

Seems fair to me.

[MrFungus420]

A) If an idea can only be sustained by use of force then it must not have much else going for it.

Like the threat of infinite punishment if you don't believe?

Is that any different from "If you don't do this, I'm going to beat you."?

Assuming the veracity of Christianity, you are threatened if you don't believe, and that threat is actualized after death. So Christianity most definitely is sustained through force.

Assuming it to be false, it is still a threat of force. A threat that is supposedly real.

B) If people are willing to endure torture and death for what they believe then it MUST be pretty significant.

What must be significant?
Their belief? I would agree that someone who is willing to die or be tortured for a belief has a significant belief.
Their willingness to endure for a belief? Again, the willingness is very significant.
The object of the belief? No. Their ability or willingness to endure death or torture in no way makes the object of their belief significant. It in no way validates the belief. It in no way is indicative of the veracity of the belief. It says nothing about whether or not the belief is correct.

[MrFungus420]

My argument is a theological one that God desires us to think about divinity and the afterlife.
Why would satan want that? How is that in any way a strategy?

Because the Bible is nonsensical and contradictory.
Because there is no evidence for a god.
Because there is no reason to postulate a god.

So, assuming the God/Satan thing, it would be in Satan's best interest to encourage people to critically read the Bible, it would be in Satan's interest to encourage people to think about the claims of Christianity and learn how contradictory they are.

If God wants us to think about the "afterlife", then he wants us to think about his carrot and stick, heaven and hell. Thinking about the afterlife is focusing on the reward and punishment.

Why might Satan want us to think about it? Maybe because God wanted us ignorant so Satan just wants to oppose what God wants. I don't care what Satan's reason was for telling Eve the truth (assuming that you hold to the interpretation that the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan), whether it was for love of humans or out of pure hatred for God, it doesn't matter to me. Satan gave us the gift of knowledge that God wanted to deny us.

[charlou]

Charlou,
You dragged me into it. I just wanted to post a comment about Mr Hitchens and his legacy in the thread where I thought it belonged.
But I'm here now.
My argument is a theological one that God desires us to think about divinity and the afterlife.
Why would satan want that? How is that in any way a strategy?
Lion (IRC)

[youtubeuk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk5xC-fjulk[/youtubeuk]

[devogue]

Satan doesnt want people talking about God.

You really believe so?


Regarding the myth ... Satan is the one who encouraged us to have awareness and seek knowledge and enjoy the fruits of the world , while God wanted us to remain naive and gormless and frightened and feeling icky about ourselves and each other , and have eyes only for him . Satan encouraged discourse while God circumscribed it .
I know which character I prefer.

This thread is a thing of beauty...

"debunkerisation"

"Tastes like crazy"

[Lion IRC]

Hi Feck,
I'm too time poor to do the quote function properly sorry.
Please consider my responses in bold red.
Lion (IRC)

Charlou,
You dragged me into it. I just wanted to post a comment about Mr Hitchens and his legacy in the thread where I thought it belonged.
But I'm here now.
My argument is a theological one that God desires us to think about divinity and the afterlife.
Why would satan want that? How is that in any way a strategy?

Lion (IRC)

\that's funny because in every other MYTH that was copied when the the jews made up their story the Satan character is punished for passing on knowledge to man .

Thats not true. In scripture satan passes on lies to humans

I think you are holding the brown end of the stick ,besides what a trite OP typical smug Theism . Just like JW's at the door "would you like to talk about God ?" but we all know that they don't and you don't! You make a post like that full of FAIL and then wonder why it gets pulled apart .

It's not my OP. Charlou wanted to make an OP about my oblique reference to satan in a remark about Mr Hitchens elevating the level of discussion in society ABOUT God. Please don't feel obligated to weigh into a thread you think is not worthy.

How the fuck do you know what god wants or thinks ............Because he told us in the Babble Have you even read it ? At what point in history do you think Genesis was written ? And WHY was it written ? they couldn't even get the stuff about one god right .Try learning some history

I have spent a little bit of time occasionally reading the bible. Are you inviting me to join you in a bible study about what God thinks according to the bible? That would be nice - thanks. But first I think you should make the effort to contribute to the ACTUAL topic here viz;

Does it make any strategic sense for satan (or some other opponent of God) to actively promote the cause of theological discussion? Is it not counter-intuitive for New Atheism to stir up a renewed interest in God and religion in the hope that the more people talking about God the better it will be for atheists in the long run? Where is the logic in running an anti-theist polemic which jolts every single apathetic arm-chair apologist wannabe into action? How many Hindus and Norse Thor worshippers and Wiccans and New Agers and Native/Aboriginal Religionists are teaming up with Jews, Muslims and Christians to say - hell YES Mr Hitchens, we WOULD like to talk publicly to you about "religion".

Because I think Mr Hitchens walked into the wrong bar to pick a fight.

Lion (IRC)

[Lion IRC]

A) If an idea can only be sustained by use of force then it must not have much else going for it.

Like the threat of infinite punishment if you don't believe?

Is that any different from "If you don't do this, I'm going to beat you."?

Hi MrFungus420,
It's not punishment to say to someone you dont have to spend eternity with God if you dont want. Surely you have read or heard Mr Hitchens express revulsion at the idea of living under a celestial dictatorship. (BTW - entropy is a celestial dictatorship. Gravity is a celestial dictatorship. Radiation is a celestial dictatorship. None of these give a stuff what Mr Hitchens thinks)
Also, I think you should remember that a flame which burns forever but doesnt cremate you can't be THAT hot now can it? Perhaps that might be because its the separated chaff which get assigned to the flames of hell and not actual people. You do take the bible descriptions of hell literally dont you? Wheat, chaff, goats, sulphur, flames?
Lion (IRC)

[Xamonas Chegwé]

If, as you claim, the rise in outspoken atheism of the sort purveyed by Dawkins and Hitchens is causing people to talk about god and thus is a good thing for the church, why are church attendances in the UK (the home country of both of the examples you gave) dropping like stones? Most people here (the UK) don't give a fuck about religion one way or the other and seldom talk about it, or about atheism for that matter. What has changed is that, since its 'fall from grace', most choose to have a lie-in on a Sunday morning.

And if talking about god is such a great thing for the church, why was it stifled so furiously and violently when the church's power was at its peak?

[sandinista]

Satan? God? Thats like saying fairies don't want people talking about unicorns. weird thread.

[JimC]

Satan? God? Thats like saying fairies don't want people talking about unicorns. weird thread.

[MrFungus420]

A) If an idea can only be sustained by use of force then it must not have much else going for it.

Like the threat of infinite punishment if you don't believe?

Is that any different from "If you don't do this, I'm going to beat you."?

Hi MrFungus420,
It's not punishment to say to someone you dont have to spend eternity with God if you dont want.

If you don't believe in me, you will spend eternity in Hell.
If you believe in me, you will spend eternity in Heaven.

Infinite reward and infinite punishment for finite acts.

I can't choose to believe. The closest that I could do would be to lie about believing. Don't you think that your god would be able to see through that lie?

So, by not supplying the evidence to convince me that he exists, your god has chosen to condemn me to eternal punishment.

By giving me logic and reason, your god has condemned me to eternal punishment for using the mental abilities that he has given me.

Surely you have read or heard Mr Hitchens express revulsion at the idea of living under a celestial dictatorship. (BTW - entropy is a celestial dictatorship. Gravity is a celestial dictatorship. Radiation is a celestial dictatorship. None of these give a stuff what Mr Hitchens thinks)

So what?

What does that have to do with anything that I have said? Where has my argument been based on what Hitchens has said? Where have I quoted or referenced him AT ALL?

Also, I think you should remember that a flame which burns forever but doesnt cremate you can't be THAT hot now can it?

Ooh. Look. Trying to be cute and funny. And failing. Or are you saying that the soul is something physical and flammable?

INFINITE PUNISHMENT for simply not believing.

Perhaps that might be because its the separated chaff which get assigned to the flames of hell and not actual people. You do take the bible descriptions of hell literally dont you?

No. I don't.

Try to keep up, this is very simple.

I do not believe in your god.
I do not believe in the stories in your Bible.
That means that I cannot take the Biblical descriptions of Hell literally because I do not believe that it is a literal place.

That does not change the fact that as long as SOMEONE believes in it, then the problems exists for them. A benevolent and loving entity would not torture people forever for merely not believing in it. That is neither loving nor benevolent.

It is a contradiction in what Christianity presents.

[Feck]

Please don't feel obligated to weigh into a thread you think is not worthy.

I won't then .

[Tigger]

What a load of frigging bollocks, and here's all these atheists wasting their erudite minds countering that which needs no refuting.
Fuck off, and leave us to eat babies.

[Jay G]

Fuck off, and leave us to eat babies.

Do you want yours with mustard or hot sauce?