First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

[GeneticJen]

He's been neglecting the forum for years. He made the front page what it is today, not the forum. And even if I announce that I have no idea why they locked the forum, that doesn't change the fact that the reasons they provided to the public were false. You can argue whether I'm right or not about why this happened, and of course I can accept the possibility that I've judged people wrongly and that I don't know everything, but it doesn't change observable reality. They were dishonest to us all, and that's what I'm highlighting.

there you go again with the kangaroo court logic.....And even if I announce that I have no idea why they locked the forum, that doesn't change the fact that the reasons they provided to the public were false.

What do you say to those who argue that you are so entrenched in your anger/irrational thinking/whatever that even if you find out the precise reason they suddenly back peddled on their promise (to keep the forum open for 30 days) and closed comments on the forum, they are all lying bastards anyway?

Thanks to your blog and others lapping up your take on events, the RDF team are already hung, drawn and quartered, before we even find out the precise sequence of events and what EXACTLY happened (not your speculations) in between the announcement that the forum will be kept alive for 30 days and suddenly closing comments.

I've had countless emails asking why I've been so calm considering how we were treated. But you mention my anger and irrational thinking. I've posted what happened, explained where I don't know what happened, and that's it. As for faulty logic, I don't understand what you mean. What I'm saying is that even if I have NO information on the real reasons for doing what was done... we know for a fact that the reason provided was false because we were there and we are the ones being falsely accused.

[95Theses]

Seeing that RD is online now, I sent this.

i don't know if you are proud of yourself, but that is about as unhelpful as you could possibly be. This kind of childish PM to Richard is helping no one and simply reinforcing the line that was presented to him by Josh that what was done on the forums was the right thing to do.

I can only hope that your message is drowned out by more reasonable rational ones. You don't speak for me, and you've made yourself look a fool for sending this.

if you had a point to make to him you should have made rational evidence supported ones, not bare ad-homs that will be simply disregarded as yet more evidence of the looney rants that caused the site to be shut down.

You've done our cause harm, were it in my power I'd award you a bloody dunaspy.

[ficklefiend]

Well, it seems fairly obvious why the forum was locked down. Because the shitstorm that landed here would have been held over there, perhaps without a full moderation team or a mod team that weren't on side.

Interestingly, if it had been over there Richard would not have had those quotes, because anything against a member would have been deleted. It would have been a tough job to manage that anger and censorship though, I can see why it was easier just to cut everyone off.

Not necessarily. If the Mod team were let in on the decision process, then many of us could have adjusted and, after venting our dissatisfaction, finished up our threads and started looking forward to whatever it is that's on its way.

I mean, a little respect goes a long way.

I mean the events that did happen, not the event that could have happened. There were multiple ways this could have been tackled to not end on such bad terms. As it was, I can see why the forum closed.

[Simon_Gardner]

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=014150

[The Dawktor]

One thing I've noticed about some people who do not "live" on the internet very much is that they do not understand the type of community that the internet fosters. They see any negativity or resistance as evidence of there being something rotten on the internet. Dawkins' use of this kind of language is not the first time I have seen it.



I think there is a tendency to underestimate the strength of communities and relationships on the internet. "It's just a message board" "it's just a chatroom" are exceedingly ignorant comments (or implied comments) that demonstrate how little experience the speaker has of being part of an internet community. Internet communities are a type of community that simply doesn't exist for the vast majority people in real life, often bringing together people who cannot find each other in real life. What modern situation is comparable? People don't gather the way they used to. Essentially, the vast majority of productive internet forums (of which the RDF Forums were a shining example) are social discussion societies. They remind me of a kind of 19th century gathering of intellectuals. People meet every day in the same coffee shop and discuss. Sometimes, those discussions are intensely academic, other times their personal lives sneak in-- as must inevitably happen as people get to know each other.

There is some regulation and organization by some leaders, but it runs primarily because people want to show up. They may get into fierce arguments with people they dislike, but they come back because it's fundamentally a safe place. Over the years they are active, the society that maybe was started by one person, now exists as its own entity. The founding individual may not even attend the meetings very frequently any more.

This is what the best internet forums are. They are not groups of crazy people who have no lives, they are profound expressions of productive human discussion. They represent a kind of deep productive social discussion that does not happen in our society very often any more. Perhaps it should, but it does not.

I wasn't a member of the RDF forums for very long (less than a month), so I cannot presume to be part of that particular profound society. But I am and have been part of other forums. I know what it must feel like and how all the members who belonged to the community must feel. You have my condolences.

What happened at the RDF Forums is the real life equivalent of the founder of the 19th century coffee shop society's clerk (whom nobody in the society has ever really met) coming back suddenly and announcing that the society is over. Not only can it not meet in its habitual place any more, it can never meet again in the same form. The founder is coming back and discussions will now be lead by him only. Everyone will now speak their turn and personal discussions between the people who have now become friends will be banned. "It's just a society," the founder says.

It is not only a matter of "has the right to do this". Most people I think agree that it is RDF's forum. It is simply inhuman to expect that people would not be upset and would not express their anger in a meaningful way. To express shock that they would shows a strange lack of understanding of people.

Excellent post- I think that this sums it up perfectly- thank you Teshi

[klr]

...
YOU DON'T KNOW WHY they backtracked on their promise to keep the forum alive and pulled the plug. YOU ARE SPECULATING.

And therein lies a massive problem. They haven't told us yet won't tell us.

I fixed that for you.

that still doesn't justify or excuse the irrational kangaroo court style attack on richard and the RDF team.

There's nothing kangaroo court about it. Your characterisation of us as a group on the other hand ...

BTW, when the old Off-Topic and Vets were pulled back at RD.net in Oct. 08, RD himself was on the scene within a day to patiently explain the full sequence of events as he saw them, including the fact that legal concerns played a very large part in his decision. How very different to now.

[klr]

Seeing that RD is online now, I sent this.

i don't know if you are proud of yourself, but that is about as unhelpful as you could possibly be. This kind of childish PM to Richard is helping no one and simply reinforcing the line that was presented to him by Josh that what was done on the forums was the right thing to do.

I can only hope that your message is drowned out by more reasonable rational ones. You don't speak for me, and you've made yourself look a fool for sending this.

if you had a point to make to him you should have made rational evidence supported ones, not bare ad-homs that will be simply disregarded as yet more evidence of the looney rants that caused the site to be shut down.

You've done our cause harm, were it in my power I'd award you a bloody dunaspy.

+1

[Ilovelucy]

...
YOU DON'T KNOW WHY they backtracked on their promise to keep the forum alive and pulled the plug. YOU ARE SPECULATING.

And therein lies a massive problem. They haven't won't tell us.

I fixed that for you.

that still doesn't justify or excuse the irrational kangaroo court style attack on richard and the RDF team.

It is not a trial.
Richard is free to join here and defend himself. He is free to post on any other blog or anywhere else on the net.

I, and I think everyone else, is not out to take from Richard what is his, but to reclaim what is ours that we trusted him with.

I like Kangaroos and take offense to your derogatory use of that fine and majestic marsupial.

I have to agree. I don't think that Richard deserves to be attacked by a gang of kangaroos dressed up as barristers, clerks, judges, jurors, convicts and policemen; but if it was put up on youtube I would probably click on the link.

[ozewiezeloose]

i don't know if you are proud of yourself, but that is about as unhelpful as you could possibly be. This kind of childish PM to Richard is helping no one and simply reinforcing the line that was presented to him by Josh that what was done on the forums was the right thing to do.

I can only hope that your message is drowned out by more reasonable rational ones. You don't speak for me, and you've made yourself look a fool for sending this.

if you had a point to make to him you should have made rational evidence supported ones, not bare ad-homs that will be simply disregarded as yet more evidence of the looney rants that caused the site to be shut down.

You've done our cause harm, were it in my power I'd award you a bloody dunaspy.

This is the last message I sent to RD:

Dear Richard,

I just read your latest comment of the RDF forum, and cannot but stress my utter disappointed - again.

I fail to understand that, after all the moderators had been fired, many posts had been deleted (many of them VERY informative indeed), after the forum had been frozen from participation, you found yourself surprised and shocked that people were not taking it well.

The proverbial benefit of the doubt, in this case, leads me to assume that you have been sadly misinformed about the whole affair, and it would be much appreciated if you could take a look at Peter Harrison's blog, for example, to get a clearer view of both sides of the story.

As mentioned before, you can find Mr Harrison's blog here: http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.com/

Kind regards,

SDL

[Matt H]

Seeing that RD is online now, I sent this.

i don't know if you are proud of yourself, but that is about as unhelpful as you could possibly be. This kind of childish PM to Richard is helping no one and simply reinforcing the line that was presented to him by Josh that what was done on the forums was the right thing to do.

I can only hope that your message is drowned out by more reasonable rational ones. You don't speak for me, and you've made yourself look a fool for sending this.

if you had a point to make to him you should have made rational evidence supported ones, not bare ad-homs that will be simply disregarded as yet more evidence of the looney rants that caused the site to be shut down.

You've done our cause harm, were it in my power I'd award you a bloody dunaspy.

+1

Thirded. Richard will take one look at that and say, "Josh was right."

[natselrox]

Seeing that RD is online now, I sent this.

i don't know if you are proud of yourself, but that is about as unhelpful as you could possibly be. This kind of childish PM to Richard is helping no one and simply reinforcing the line that was presented to him by Josh that what was done on the forums was the right thing to do.

I can only hope that your message is drowned out by more reasonable rational ones. You don't speak for me, and you've made yourself look a fool for sending this.

if you had a point to make to him you should have made rational evidence supported ones, not bare ad-homs that will be simply disregarded as yet more evidence of the looney rants that caused the site to be shut down.

You've done our cause harm, were it in my power I'd award you a bloody dunaspy.

I tend to act irrationally when I'm angry. Bring the bloody dunaspy on!

But I do have a few points in my defence:

1. Timonen defriended all the RDFers on Facebook. I had never insulted him and had no intention of doing so. In fact, I thought I had a fair relation with him regarding the discussions we had when I bought those goodies from RDF. The fact that he defriended me without any reason shows that he is a fucking coward.

2. Forget it... why am I writing this?

[natselrox]

Seeing that he hasn't read it yet...





Sorry, folks!

[MissingNo.]

Seeing that he hasn't read it yet...





Sorry, folks!

HAHAHAHA I love how you edited it so you just appear to be a complete nutter.

[ED209]

Blah, blah ,blah

[fredbear]

Seeing that he hasn't read it yet...





Sorry, folks!

HAHAHAHA I love how you edited it so you just appear to be a complete nutter.

don't worry natselrox. what was acceptable yesterday is so not acceptable today. it's evolution. it just tripped you up. don't think anyone can really cast stones.