Vigilante

[piscator]

What if I shot you in the leg?

[Gallstones]

What if I shot you in the leg?

I don't think you've really thought this through.

[Gallstones]

Montana Governor Steve Bullock Expresses Sympathy to German Council over Teens Killing

Peter Rothen, the German consul general based in San Francisco, wrote Bullock on April 30 to say the German government and citizens were “deeply shocked and dismayed” by the death.

“Allow me also to state clearly that the German government fully respects the people of Montana’s right to set its laws as the people of Montana see fit,” Rothen wrote.

The official expressed confidence that the investigations would be conducted with the “utmost impartiality and that eventually justice will be done by not letting go unpunished the shooting of an unarmed juvenile through what appears to be the exercise of grossly disproportionate violence.”

Rothen said he and his government have the expectation that they can count on Bullock’s support “in ensuring that the rule of law is seen to be fully applied in this case.”

That sounds reasonable.

He added that German penal law also applies to crimes committed against German nationals abroad.

Say what!?

[JimC]

Montana Governor Steve Bullock Expresses Sympathy to German Council over Teens Killing

Peter Rothen, the German consul general based in San Francisco, wrote Bullock on April 30 to say the German government and citizens were “deeply shocked and dismayed” by the death.

“Allow me also to state clearly that the German government fully respects the people of Montana’s right to set its laws as the people of Montana see fit,” Rothen wrote.

The official expressed confidence that the investigations would be conducted with the “utmost impartiality and that eventually justice will be done by not letting go unpunished the shooting of an unarmed juvenile through what appears to be the exercise of grossly disproportionate violence.”

Rothen said he and his government have the expectation that they can count on Bullock’s support “in ensuring that the rule of law is seen to be fully applied in this case.”

That sounds reasonable.

He added that German penal law also applies to crimes committed against German nationals abroad.

Say what!?

Perhaps if the shooter travelled to Germany...

[Gallstones]

Interesting speculation voiced elsewhere: the trespass might be a misdemeanor, petty theft at most because there was no forcible entry made. If that is so then Kaarma can not expect protection from Castle law for having resorted to deadly force.

[Gallstones]

Montana Governor Steve Bullock Expresses Sympathy to German Council over Teens Killing

Peter Rothen, the German consul general based in San Francisco, wrote Bullock on April 30 to say the German government and citizens were “deeply shocked and dismayed” by the death.

“Allow me also to state clearly that the German government fully respects the people of Montana’s right to set its laws as the people of Montana see fit,” Rothen wrote.

The official expressed confidence that the investigations would be conducted with the “utmost impartiality and that eventually justice will be done by not letting go unpunished the shooting of an unarmed juvenile through what appears to be the exercise of grossly disproportionate violence.”

Rothen said he and his government have the expectation that they can count on Bullock’s support “in ensuring that the rule of law is seen to be fully applied in this case.”

That sounds reasonable.

He added that German penal law also applies to crimes committed against German nationals abroad.

Say what!?

Perhaps if the shooter travelled to Germany...

Perhaps if they don't like the outcome of the trial they will petition for extradition?

[piscator]

What if I shot you in the leg?

I don't think you've really thought this through.

You're right. I'll shoot him in the ass and say I missed.

[piscator]

Montana Governor Steve Bullock Expresses Sympathy to German Council over Teens Killing

Peter Rothen, the German consul general based in San Francisco, wrote Bullock on April 30 to say the German government and citizens were “deeply shocked and dismayed” by the death.

“Allow me also to state clearly that the German government fully respects the people of Montana’s right to set its laws as the people of Montana see fit,” Rothen wrote.

The official expressed confidence that the investigations would be conducted with the “utmost impartiality and that eventually justice will be done by not letting go unpunished the shooting of an unarmed juvenile through what appears to be the exercise of grossly disproportionate violence.”

Rothen said he and his government have the expectation that they can count on Bullock’s support “in ensuring that the rule of law is seen to be fully applied in this case.”

That sounds reasonable.

He added that German penal law also applies to crimes committed against German nationals abroad.

Say what!?

Perhaps if the shooter travelled to Germany...

Perhaps if they don't like the outcome of the trial they will petition for extradition?

That wouldn't be extradition, that would be rendition.

[Seth]

What if I shot you in the leg?

First, you'd have to find me, then you'd have to get close enough to shoot me, and if you try to shoot me in the leg I'll be defending myself as soon as I see your gun aimed at me. Merely unlawfully pointing a gun at someone is a felony.

[Seth]

Moving on,....

I'll take that as an admission of your ignorance, which I'm happy to dispel for you.

[Seth]

Peter Rothen, the German consul general based in San Francisco, wrote Bullock on April 30 to say the German government and citizens were “deeply shocked and dismayed” by the death.

“Allow me also to state clearly that the German government fully respects the people of Montana’s right to set its laws as the people of Montana see fit,” Rothen wrote.

The official expressed confidence that the investigations would be conducted with the “utmost impartiality and that eventually justice will be done by not letting go unpunished the shooting of an unarmed juvenile through what appears to be the exercise of grossly disproportionate violence.”

Rothen said he and his government have the expectation that they can count on Bullock’s support “in ensuring that the rule of law is seen to be fully applied in this case.”

Fuck the Germans. First they say Montana has a right to set its own laws, then they say what appears to be a lawful shooting shouldn't go "unpunished" just because the crook, whose cohort admitted they were both felons engaged in repeat burglaries, got shot. Well fuck you, Germany, that's the law here. Don't send your criminals over here and expect us to have sympathy for your complaints.

He added that German penal law also applies to crimes committed against German nationals abroad.

Say what!?

We have the same kind of law. It's used against terrorists who harm US citizens in other countries all the time, but it only applies when the act is against the law in the US as well. For instance it's illegal for a US citizen to travel to Thailand, or anywhere else in the world, to have sex with underage children, and the US can prosecute citizens for "kiddie-sex tourism" even if it's legal in the country where it takes place.

But this is different. Assuming it was a justified shooting (which is still in doubt), no crime occurred, and while it might be a crime in Germany to do so, an American cannot be extradited to Germany for actions that are not unlawful here in the US.

[Seth]

Interesting speculation voiced elsewhere: the trespass might be a misdemeanor, petty theft at most because there was no forcible entry made. If that is so then Kaarma can not expect protection from Castle law for having resorted to deadly force.

This is a valid argument. It depends on how Montana defines "forcible entry" to an "occupied structure."

It's very possible the shooter will go down under the theory that by leaving the garage door open he created an "attractive nuisance" that might attract unknowing children with no mal intent, and that this negates his right to use deadly force even inside his home on the general public principle that a property owner has a duty to trespassers to make it clear they are intruding on private property unlawfully.

In Colorado, for open lands, there is an implied right of entry, until one is informed differently, on "unimproved, apparently unused land" that is neither "fenced to exclude" nor legally posted with "No Trespassing" signs at intervals of less than 440 yards.

Under Colorado's Castle Doctrine, unless the shooter formed a "reasonable belief" that the intruders were about to use "any degree of physical force, no matter how slight" against an occupant, deadly force would not be justified.

The Montana statute seems to shortcut that a bit by requiring that the entry be "forcible" to begin with, which implies that the intruder knows entry is prohibited and uses some degree of force to make that entry anyway, at which point any threat of "assault" triggers the deadly force authorization.

I suspect he will be convicted, but I still have no sympathy for the dead felon or his partner, who admitted to being serial burglars.

The dumb homeowner should have just closed the garage door, because for them to open it is "forcible entry."

[Gallstones]

Teen to be charged with earlier burglaries at shooter's home

The Missoula County Attorney’s Office will file charges against an 18-year-old man accused of burglarizing the home of Janelle Pflager and Markus Kaarma several times prior to the night a German exchange student was shot to death in the couple’s garage.

Tristan Staber, who is now in jail for a probation violation, will be charged Thursday with conspiracy to commit burglary and is expected to appear in Justice Court, said Missoula Deputy County Attorney Jason Marks.

...
It remains unclear whether charges will be filed against Kaarma’s wife, Pflager, but Deputy County Attorney Andrew Paul said prosecutors are considering the possibility.

“We have not made that determination yet,” Paul said Wednesday. “We haven’t decided whether or not charges would be appropriate.”

Paul didn’t indicate what the woman would be charged with – if prosecutors decide to pursue a case against her.

The Search Warrant

May 12, 2014 Affidavit


And on page 14 of the Affidavit he throws the wife under the bus. What'a guy.

[Gallstones]

In order for Kaarma to make a credible claim to self protection laws then Dede has to fit the description of an aggressor. As an aggressor Dede would also have a right to legal self defense under certain circumstances (although he didn't have the means). The highlighted are the circumstances that apply and that IMO forfeit Kaarmas claim to legal self defense.

45-3-105. Use of force by aggressor. The justification described in 45-3-102 through 45-3-104 is not available to a person who:
(1) is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) purposely or knowingly provokes the use of force against the person, unless:
(a) the force is so great that the person reasonably believes that the person is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and that the person has exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger other than the use of force that is likely to cause death or serious bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) in good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that the person desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Kaarma did not try to affect an arrest. He had Dede trapped in the garage and per the affidavit said he shot Dede because he didn't want him to escape.

Also, I don't think it can be substantiated that Dede's actions, although trespassing, fit the legal definition for aggressor. Kaarma said it was too dark in the garage to see anything, he shot blind. That means he could not have recognized if there was an aggressor or not.

Kaarma's use of marijuana means that it was not legal for him to purchase firearms or ammunition. This is federal law that applies even to legal medical marijuana card holders. Montana does have medical marijuana. So even if he already owned the shotgun, when did he last buy shells?

[piscator]

I have a friend who tells this hilarious story about being in a gang of high school kids trying to steal gas from the garage of someone they knew. It didn't work out too good for him and his pals either, but they just got their asses beat.