The English Government.

[PsychoSerenity]

Yeah without the Scots we'd need some sort of revolution to bring balance to the force, or I might be inclined to brave the weather and move to Scotland. To be honest it's hard to predict how political will might change in such a situation, but generally I'd say a larger number of us are better off by standing together than breaking apart, even if we have to put up with so many neoliberals at the moment.

[ronmcd]

We hear a bit here about the coming referendum on devolution, much of the resistance of which, here at least comes from our fellows down south. This makes me wonder why as I can't see how Scotland leaving the union would be detrimental to England.

For me that's very simple.

Scotland supplies a fair number of the votes and seats that give us a fighting chance of a Labour government every now and then. With no Scottish people voting for the same government as me, the chances of my having to live under permanent toryism increase significantly.

I fuckin hate the tories.

Yeah without the Scots we'd need some sort of revolution to bring balance to the force, or I might be inclined to brave the weather and move to Scotland. To be honest it's hard to predict how political will might change in such a situation, but generally I'd say a larger number of us are better off by standing together than breaking apart, even if we have to put up with so many neoliberals at the moment.

Honestly, as someone who used to vote Labour and was not a supporter of independence until Labour became Tory light ... I get that argument for Scotland staying, I have some sympathy with it. But the facts don't back it up really. It's only been twice in the last 40 odd years that Scottish MP's made any difference to the Westminister government, admittedly one of them was 2010 as without them it would have been a Tory majority (not sure how different that would have been!)

When UK has had a Labour government it's been because England voted Labour, to be honest. So Scotland could continue voting Labour but until England does, we become largely irrelevant. If not irrelevant, certainly frustrated. What's changed in the last decade in Scotland isnt the SNP or Alex Salmond ... it's that the Parliament has given people in Scotland an avenue to express that frustration, and have some control.

Losing Scottish MP's might be a problem in the sense that the right becomes even more embedded as political normality in the rest of UK. But it's just as likely that the current red/yellow/blue tory homogeneity would be MORE likely to split and diverge politically. Who knows. I would hope so. (Labour would need to get rid of Milibland though)

[Brian Peacock]

I'm all for limiting the scope of the Tories but at the same time if a significant body of people want the independence to order their own affairs then who am I to stand in their way? I don't want to see the union dissolved, but I also think that more regional accountability is generally better than the alternative.

[Beatsong]

Oh sure. Objectively, I can accept that if the Scots want to leave the union, they should be able to. It's purely selfishly that I worry where that leaves those of us in England with the sense not to vote tory (or now tory-dem).

As for going to live there: fuck that. I went to Edinburgh once - it was fucking July and I froze my bollocks off. Never again.

[mistermack]

Oh sure. Objectively, I can accept that if the Scots want to leave the union, they should be able to.

Sound simple and logical doesn't it. But hidden in that sentence is a load of subjective stuff.
What IS a Scot? It's not like they are a different species. They are just people who live north of an imaginary line.

What's so special about an imaginary line that was agreed by Mafia type bosses of yesterday?
Scots is just an imaginary concept, just like god.

Scot's are no different to Cornishmen, Londoners, or Yorkshiremen. If the principle is good for Scots, it should be good for all the rest. And so you end up back with loads of poxy little "Kingdoms" that will be at each others' throats in no time.

You can draw lines and have ballots wherever you like.
What if a majority in Glasgow vote to stay in the UK?

Using your statement about Scots, if the Glaswegians want to leave Scotland, they should be able to.

It all boils down to the importance of imaginary lines on the ground, and who drew them, and when.

It's totally ridiculous. We should be going the other way. And most people are.

[Coito ergo sum]

What is more Scottish MPs get to vote in the UK parliament on matters affecting England only whereas English MPs don't get to vote in the Scottish assembly. The so called West Lothian Question..

That would seem to be England's own fault, since England could have created its own "English Parliament" for purely English matters. At the time the system came into being, it was probably thought that England was the seat of the "UK" as a whole and that the rest of the various subdivisions were secondary principalities, so-to-speak.

Seems you're lacking a local government.

But, as it is, it's such a tiny little geographic area, that I think you could manage it with Board of County Commissioners. Make the Mayor of London the Mayor (or you could give him one of your queer titles, like Duke or Earl or Plenipotentiary or something) of England, and give him a Council of like 10 councilmen or freeholders or something to vote on stuff.

Heck, as a better idea, why not just go back to the Danelaw for the north and the east of England, and make English Mercia and Wessex as self-governing principalities. Let the Welsh paint their faces blue again and run around naked waving sharp pointy sticks at their neighbors.

[Coito ergo sum]

Oh sure. Objectively, I can accept that if the Scots want to leave the union, they should be able to.

Sound simple and logical doesn't it. But hidden in that sentence is a load of subjective stuff.
What IS a Scot? It's not like they are a different species. They are just people who live north of an imaginary line.

Red hair, outrageous accent, strange dietary habits. Blancmange. Awful tennis players. Men in skirts. Odd sports like throwing telephone poles. Horrid sounding musical instruments that look more like wrestling octopuses. Yes, indeed, the Scots are a different species. Not the Highlanders. I'm talking about the lowland lot.

What's so special about an imaginary line that was agreed by Mafia type bosses of yesterday?
Scots is just an imaginary concept, just like god.

If the people vote on it, they should get it. Shouldn't they? Democracy!

Scot's are no different to Cornishmen,

Don't the Cornish have big heads and are too tall for their beds?

Londoners,

I think any self-respecting Londoner is going to explain to you that they are, indeed, different than Scotsmen.

or Yorkshiremen.

...if we were looky!

If the principle is good for Scots, it should be good for all the rest. And so you end up back with loads of poxy little "Kingdoms" that will be at each others' throats in no time.

And, if that's what the people want, so be it!!

You can draw lines and have ballots wherever you like.
What if a majority in Glasgow vote to stay in the UK?

Anarchy for the UK!

Sid Vicious was a prophet!

Using your statement about Scots, if the Glaswegians want to leave Scotland, they should be able to.

It all boils down to the importance of imaginary lines on the ground, and who drew them, and when.

It's totally ridiculous. We should be going the other way. And most people are.

I think the Amish have it right, if they'd only get rid of the whole god-Jesus thingy.