Why Johnny can't code

[Pappa]

BBC Micros used in retro programming class
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10951040

[klr]

I grew up in a time when computers still meant programming.

My grandfather grew up at a time when cars meant hands on mechanical knowledge. The pioneering days don't last long. Computers - like cars - have become switch on / switch off type tools. Skills, such as the computer equivalent for repairing your own innertube, priming carburetors or defouling spark plugs have become largely irrelevant. Time for you to move on. Anyway, there is nothing stopping kids from becoming programmers or mechanics today, if they feel so inclined. If the former, they might just have to learn something like C++ instead of ancient languages like BASIC or Fortran.

But the problem is that too few of them will get the minimal necessary exposure in the first place to find out if they are inclined or not.

I have no problem with the move from pioneering days to user-friendly commoditisation, but it shouldn't bring with it a complete ignorance of basic computing concepts, to the point where most users regard it as a form of magic, if they ever think of it at all.

BBC Micros used in retro programming class
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10951040

Neat. Although a bit too tough in some ways. I wouldn't ever deny someone the use of cut and paste. Unless I was in a really mean mood.

[Hermit]

I grew up in a time when computers still meant programming.

My grandfather grew up at a time when cars meant hands on mechanical knowledge. The pioneering days don't last long. Computers - like cars - have become switch on / switch off type tools. Skills, such as the computer equivalent for repairing your own innertube, priming carburetors or defouling spark plugs have become largely irrelevant. Time for you to move on. Anyway, there is nothing stopping kids from becoming programmers or mechanics today, if they feel so inclined. If the former, they might just have to learn something like C++ instead of ancient languages like BASIC or Fortran.

But the problem is that too few of them will get the minimal necessary exposure in the first place to find out if they are inclined or not.

I have no problem with the move from pioneering days to user-friendly commoditisation, but it shouldn't bring with it a complete ignorance of basic computing concepts, to the point where most users regard it as a form of magic, if they ever think of it at all.

Hehehehehe hehe hehehehehehehehe hehe hehe hehe hehehehe...

hehehehe hehe hehehehehehehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehe....

You said "basic computing concepts"... hehe hehe hehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehehe hehehe hehe hehe hehe hehe....

Is there by any chance a shortage of programmers (or mechanics, come to think of it) in your neck of the woods? Looking at job ads and remuneration offered, I suggest such shortages were more severe in the good ole days than they are now, old-timer.

As for the inherent magic, a nice start would be if more people realised why a room lights up when they flip that switch near the door handle.

[JimC]

This topic has echoes with debates in maths education about the use of various types of calculators at various levels, and the degree to which their use could become a crutch which hampers useful skills in some situations.

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

The latest CAS calculators, with their ability to manipulate and solve algebraic expressions and equations, have heightened the debate.

[Pappa]

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

While I'm not sure exactly where I sit on the matter... I do think simple mental arithmetic is a vital life skill. Being able to add, subtract, multiply and divide in your head comes in handy in many, many practical situations. Even now, when almost everyone carries a calculator on their mobile phone, it's not feasible to pull it out for quick sums.

[klr]

...

Is there by any chance a shortage of programmers (or mechanics, come to think of it) in your neck of the woods? Looking at job ads and remuneration offered, I suggest such shortages were more severe in the good ole days than they are now, old-timer.

As for the inherent magic, a nice start would be if more people realised why a room lights up when they flip that switch near the door handle.

Mechanics (or plumbers) no, but programmers - yes. I work in an IT department of over 40 people, servicing a medium-sized university. As far as I'm aware, there are only two people in the department who can program with any semblance of confidence. I'm one of them. Part of this is cultural, in that there is a perception/belief that an organisation such as this shouldn't need any programmers of its own. A big mistake from what I can see, or maybe management prefers to work with exorbitantly-priced consultants and greedy software houses (and their sales people) rather than some independent-minded internal programmers ...

[Tigger]

Hehehehehe hehe hehehehehehehehe hehe hehe hehe hehehehe...

hehehehe hehe hehehehehehehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehe....

You said "pull it out"... hehe hehe hehe...

hehehe hehe hehe hehehe hehehe hehe hehe hehe hehe....

Fucking hell, I didn't realise this was coded!

[Robert_S]

This topic has echoes with debates in maths education about the use of various types of calculators at various levels, and the degree to which their use could become a crutch which hampers useful skills in some situations.

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

The latest CAS calculators, with their ability to manipulate and solve algebraic expressions and equations, have heightened the debate.

I forget how to do long division within a week after the last use and have to actually reinvent it on occasion.

What I want to know is how many people who can remember the procedure of long division actually understand why it works and could reinvent it should they forget how it's done.

[JimC]

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

While I'm not sure exactly where I sit on the matter... I do think simple mental arithmetic is a vital life skill. Being able to add, subtract, multiply and divide in your head comes in handy in many, many practical situations. Even now, when almost everyone carries a calculator on their mobile phone, it's not feasible to pull it out for quick sums.

I agree, but it is a diminshing skill except for some that use it daily, I suspect...

I am capable of rapid-fire addition of numbers, simply because of the number of tests I correct. Use it or lose it...

[klr]

This topic has echoes with debates in maths education about the use of various types of calculators at various levels, and the degree to which their use could become a crutch which hampers useful skills in some situations.

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

The latest CAS calculators, with their ability to manipulate and solve algebraic expressions and equations, have heightened the debate.

Spot on Jim, and that's why I started the topic here rather than in the Geek Squad.

It seems odd that in some areas, people seem to have a need to know "something" about what it is they're dealing with - whether it involves their car, their medication, or the meaning of life . But not about some of the basic things that make the world tick.

This topic has echoes with debates in maths education about the use of various types of calculators at various levels, and the degree to which their use could become a crutch which hampers useful skills in some situations.

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

The latest CAS calculators, with their ability to manipulate and solve algebraic expressions and equations, have heightened the debate.

I forget how to do long division within a week after the last use and have to actually reinvent it on occasion.

What I want to know is how many people who can remember the procedure of long division actually understand why it works and could reinvent it should they forget how it's done.

If by "reinvent", you mean "drag it out of the depths of memory", then yes, I do that as well. I hardly ever need to do manual long division, but if the need arises, I remember almost immediately.

[JimC]

This topic has echoes with debates in maths education about the use of various types of calculators at various levels, and the degree to which their use could become a crutch which hampers useful skills in some situations.

For example, some people argue that, with wide-spread calculator use, the times tables should be put on the scrap heap. However, a knowledge of the times tables makes processes such as factorisation so much easier... On the other hand, long division is probably best seen as an historical curiosity.

The latest CAS calculators, with their ability to manipulate and solve algebraic expressions and equations, have heightened the debate.

I forget how to do long division within a week after the last use and have to actually reinvent it on occasion.

What I want to know is how many people who can remember the procedure of long division actually understand why it works and could reinvent it should they forget how it's done.

That is a good point. It comes to the fore in the division of algebraic expressions by possible factors; quite tricky, actually...

Another example is operations on fractions. Most calculators these days do that as a matter of course, but you need to understand the maths behind it to deal effectively with algebraic fractions...

Then again, top-level calculators will handle those too...

[Robert_S]

If by "reinvent", you mean "drag it out of the depths of memory", then yes, I do that as well. I hardly ever need to do manual long division, but if the need arises, I remember almost immediately.

Nope, I mean I have to spend a few minutes thinking "How would a system for dividing large numbers that looks like what I remember it looking like work?" I've invented one other system that works for smaller numbers.

[Ronja]

I guess I don't understand why kids couldn't just use Java as their first language.

Neither do I. Our girls got quite hooked on Greenfoot some 2 years ago - we should definitely dig it up again: http://www.greenfoot.org/about/whatis.html For them seeing that the program can do something intriguing / cute to begin with and then starting to change and add stuff was the winning combination. Seeing and trying things out is what gets them interested.

(And no, they did not loose interest, but we the grownups messed up their life for a while with a near-divorce situation.... Yes, we should definitely resurrect Greenfoot!)

[Azathoth]

Surely python would be a good contenter as a replacement for basic to get kids into coding. I'm having a tinker with it at the moment and it is amazingly intuitive after wrestling with C++

[Robert_S]

Surely python would be a good contenter as a replacement for basic to get kids into coding. I'm having a tinker with it at the moment and it is amazingly intuitive after wrestling with C++

I wish the guy who wrote the Learning Perl would write a book for Python.