You guys and your guns...

[Svartalf]

Yep, plus, if are going to have a civil war, I prefer the home team to be armed, and for the war to happen on our terms rather than the invading side's.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yep, plus, if are going to have a civil war, I prefer the home team to be armed, and for the war to happen on our terms rather than the invading side's.

Yamamoto Isoruku, the eternal realist, said that if Japan went to war with the US peace terms would have to be dictated in the White House. We're a stubborn, hard-headed lot that will defend what we've got (or used to be, anyway.)

[Wumbologist]

Sorry.
I was out of town for a little while and away from my trusty old computer.

i do not think I have said that firearms are the only cause of a high murder rate, but they are certainly a potent cause. I also will keep pointing out that, for the USA, it is not really firearms overall, but hand guns that make the difference. Other nations, like my own, still have firearms in the hands of a lot of the population, but not hand guns. The nations with low murder rates seem to all have almost total bans on hand guns.

Michael Shermer recently made a statement, following the Batman movie massacre, that America must ban semi automatic or fully automatic weapons. I can see his thinking, but it is crappy logic. Overall, such weapons kills very few people. Hand guns, though, kill from 8,000 to 14,000 people each year and wound twice that number in deliberate shootings.

Britain, by comparison, per capita, has just 2% of the murders by firearm, and just over 20% of the overall number of murders.

I do not think you can get past the fact that the wide availability of hand guns in the USA is resulting in many thousands of unnecessary deaths each year.

Correlation/causation fallacy.

[Warren Dew]

Warren Dew wrote:

Considering the claim is made in the face of contrary evidence, the thread is exactly yet another "bash yanks coz they're red-neck gun freaks" thread.

The extreme defensiveness of this reply leads me to the obverse point:

Some Americans will never consider that even the slightest criticism of their society is ever justified - how can one ever improve on the perfect democratic society?

Hey, takes two sides to make a good bashing thread.

I'm not really interested in trying to do an open minded discussion when the other side opens up with closed minded ridicule, though. I've tried it before and it never works.

[Warren Dew]

Michael Shermer recently made a statement, following the Batman movie massacre, that America must ban semi automatic or fully automatic weapons. I can see his thinking, but it is crappy logic. Overall, such weapons kills very few people. Hand guns, though, kill from 8,000 to 14,000 people each year and wound twice that number in deliberate shootings.

Most handguns in the U.S. are semiautomatic. Force everyone to go back to revolvers, and I'm sure New Hampshire's murder rate would increase to match New Zealand right away!

[Warren Dew]

We need to start a thread about how every should adopt the US system of government, as theirs is a really bad idea. That should be fun.

I thought we already had that discussion in Iraq and Libya.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We need to start a thread about how every should adopt the US system of government, as theirs is a really bad idea. That should be fun.

I thought we already had that discussion in Iraq and Libya.

You're not syria about that, are you?

[Seth]

Warren Dew wrote:

Considering the claim is made in the face of contrary evidence, the thread is exactly yet another "bash yanks coz they're red-neck gun freaks" thread.

The extreme defensiveness of this reply leads me to the obverse point:

Some Americans will never consider that even the slightest criticism of their society is ever justified - how can one ever improve on the perfect democratic society?

It's not perfect, its just the best that's ever been, and we don't care to hear criticism from jackasses who don't understand that fact, much less understand WHY it's the best that's ever been.

[MrJonno]

It's not perfect, its just the best that's ever been, and we don't care to hear criticism from jackasses who don't understand that fact, much less understand WHY it's the best that's ever been.

Most sensible people assume in a big world someone somewhere will be doing something better than you do, its how you seek improvement

[Seth]

It's not perfect, its just the best that's ever been, and we don't care to hear criticism from jackasses who don't understand that fact, much less understand WHY it's the best that's ever been.

Most sensible people assume in a big world someone somewhere will be doing something better than you do, its how you seek improvement

Sadly, it's been demonstrated time and time again that the American model is the best there is, so it's the rest of the world that needs to get into line and adopt our system.

[Blind groper]

Sadly, it's been demonstrated time and time again that the American model is the best there is, so it's the rest of the world that needs to get into line and adopt our system.

Would you care to offer evidence?

I am struggling to think of a single factor, apart from military menace, that shows the American system to be superior. Every nation, however, has something which is 'superior'. For example : my country is (according to international surveys) always among the top few nations for :

1. minimal religiosity
2. minimal corruption
3. most peaceful.

New Zealand is massively superior to the USA for those particular characteristics. But we are inferior in other ways (like wealth and military might), so please do not take that as an arrogant statement. Australia is similar to NZ for those three above qualities, and has the added advantage of being wealthier.

[Jason]

It's not perfect, its just the best that's ever been, and we don't care to hear criticism from jackasses who don't understand that fact, much less understand WHY it's the best that's ever been.

Most sensible people assume in a big world someone somewhere will be doing something better than you do, its how you seek improvement

Sadly, it's been demonstrated time and time again that the American model is the best there is, so it's the rest of the world that needs to get into line and adopt our system.

Um... first would you care to carefully define the 'American system' in every particular and second compare it to every other 'system' to prove your point, if you please?

Or can I just assume you're talking out of your ass?

[JimC]

Warren Dew wrote:

Considering the claim is made in the face of contrary evidence, the thread is exactly yet another "bash yanks coz they're red-neck gun freaks" thread.

The extreme defensiveness of this reply leads me to the obverse point:

Some Americans will never consider that even the slightest criticism of their society is ever justified - how can one ever improve on the perfect democratic society?

"extreme defensiveness" =/= dismissiveness, Jim. Just sayin'.

Notice that I was very careful to say some Americans...

[surreptitious57]

Some Americans will never consider that even the slightest criticism of their society is ever justified - how can one ever improve on the perfect democratic society?

It's not perfect, its just the best that's ever been, and we don't care to hear criticism from jackasses who don't understand that fact, much less understand WHY it's the best that's ever been.

Of course it is not perfect. No system ever is. But one should strive as much as possible to make it so. One of the things I do admire about America is the fact that they have a written constitution. I am particularly impressed by the First Amendment which protects freedom of speech. OK it is not absolute freedom of speech but it still protects the words of those who others may wish to censor because they find their views unacceptable. Over here in England we have the opposite, because this country is the libel capital of the world. Anyone with deep pockets can come here and sue someone because they said something they do not like. I so wish we had a First Amendment, but one that went further and guaranteed all speech. But at least you have one, which is better than not having one at all.

I also like the fact you have a Supreme Court that decides on constitutional issues. It has nine members all chosen by the President and who are balanced between conservatives and liberals. Nine is an odd number so you will never get a tied decision if everyone votes. We have the House Of Lords over here, but it is totally undemocratic and although chosen by the Prime Minister is not done on the same basis as the Supreme Court.There is no attempt to reference equality for example. Furthermore, there are over eight hundred of them too! We also have the European Union, which is even more undemocratic and can pass laws that over ride our sovereign Parliament. We also have a monarchy Ttoo, which is unelected and unaccountable. The heir to the throne has the right under English law to block any legislation he personally disapproves of, even though he has no democratic right to do so.

America is less class orientated than England as well, another thing in its favour. Over there anyone can become President. Jimmy Carter was a farmer and Ronald Reagan was an actor. We have never had a farmer or an actor become Prime Minister, as far as I know. They all tend to go to a private school and a top university. They are drawn from a rather narrow cross section of the population. This is not good for democracy. Not good at all.

Also, I love the American national anthem. I mean the emotion behind it when it is sung, and not necessarily the sentiments expressed within it. I particularly like it when it is sung by an ordinary citizen. That is very emotional. I am not a nationalist by any stretch of the imagination. I am more of a patriot than anything else. Anthems can invoke nationalistic fervour. But i just like it what is it is, rather than for what it necessarily represents. Over here, we know the first verse of ours, but tend to sing it on rare occasions. The American one is much better though.

There are many things wrong with America of course: organised religion, death penalty, foreign wars, gun culture, to name but a few, but there are many wonderful things about it too, such as those I have outlined above. One therefore has to be very careful about sterotyping a nation of over three hundred million people. They do not all think and act the same, like one large amorphous mass. There is good and bad, just like in all nations, and one should be aware of this, to avoid making unnecessary generalisations, whenever referencing it.

[Blind groper]

To surreptitious

I admire your willingness to accept the good points in another nation's system, and admit the bad points in your own.

However, Britain has one advantage over the USA which out trumps all the bad. It has no state governments. One entire layer of parasites eliminated. Yay!