An independent Scotland?

[Svartalf]

Ronmcd seems to be assuming that Scotland will AUTOMATICALLY be in the EU.

No it won't. There is no automatic mechanism. And to imagine that it will happen without a formal vote is just pie in the sky. Nobody gets in without a formal vote.

Some new mechanism will have to be agreed. And that in itself will be a big deal, and require a unanimous vote. Assuming that this is just going to happen is wishful thinking.

They would have to apply, just like anybody else. And I don't see any quotes from Spain saying they will or will not block it. Nor France. Nobody knows

The same will presumably apply to the "new" country of The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Mistermack, whatever happens, it will be breaking new ground within the EU. Why you repeatedly insist that you somehow know the outcome (when nobody else does) is nothing more than amusing.

Not necessarily, as it can claim identity (less some territory) with the previous UK, so unless some prerequisite for membership was lost at the same time as scotland, their status could remain unchanged.

[Clinton Huxley]

Everyone is barking in the dark on this one. There is no precedent. That is why to claim that Scotland will certainly be allowed to "inherit" membership is disingenuous

[Svartalf]

You call Salmond honest?

[mistermack]

Ronmcd seems to be assuming that Scotland will AUTOMATICALLY be in the EU.

No it won't. There is no automatic mechanism. And to imagine that it will happen without a formal vote is just pie in the sky. Nobody gets in without a formal vote.

Some new mechanism will have to be agreed. And that in itself will be a big deal, and require a unanimous vote. Assuming that this is just going to happen is wishful thinking.

They would have to apply, just like anybody else. And I don't see any quotes from Spain saying they will or will not block it. Nor France. Nobody knows

The same will presumably apply to the "new" country of The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
.

If that's the case I see no obligation on the UK government to agree to seperation, until their continued membership is assured. In other words, the status quo will continue, till Scotland gets it all sorted out.

[Clinton Huxley]

You call Salmond honest?

Statistically, it is unlikely.

[Red Celt]

Not necessarily, as it can claim identity (less some territory) with the previous UK, so unless some prerequisite for membership was lost at the same time as scotland, their status could remain unchanged.

OK, let's take another member of the EU... say, Germany. If that were to split in two... say, oh I dunno... West Germany and East Germany, one of the countries would remain a member of the EU and the other wouldn't? Why try and treat Scotland differently to the rest of the UK? Scotland is already a member of the EU - via Westminster, rather than Holyrood.

Scottish independence shouldn't automatically result in Scotland losing something that it already has. There would be a need for negotiations about changes to circumstances (e.g. fishing rights etc) but the same would be true of the rest of the UK. The loss of Scotland would change the UK's position within the EU, regardless of any existing provisions.

This would be true of both divorced parties. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.

[Clinton Huxley]

Not necessarily, as it can claim identity (less some territory) with the previous UK, so unless some prerequisite for membership was lost at the same time as scotland, their status could remain unchanged.

OK, let's take another member of the EU... say, Germany. If that were to split in two... say, oh I dunno... West Germany and East Germany, one of the countries would remain a member of the EU and the other wouldn't? Why try and treat Scotland differently to the rest of the UK? Scotland is already a member of the EU - via Westminster, rather than Holyrood.

Scottish independence shouldn't automatically result in Scotland losing something that it already has. There would be a need for negotiations about changes to circumstances (e.g. fishing rights etc) but the same would be true of the rest of the UK. The loss of Scotland would change the UK's position within the EU, regardless of any existing provisions.

This would be true of both divorced parties. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.

Scotland is not a member state of the EU any more than Lancashire is.

[Svartalf]

Not necessarily, as it can claim identity (less some territory) with the previous UK, so unless some prerequisite for membership was lost at the same time as scotland, their status could remain unchanged.

OK, let's take another member of the EU... say, Germany. If that were to split in two... say, oh I dunno... West Germany and East Germany, one of the countries would remain a member of the EU and the other wouldn't? Why try and treat Scotland differently to the rest of the UK? Scotland is already a member of the EU - via Westminster, rather than Holyrood.

Scottish independence shouldn't automatically result in Scotland losing something that it already has. There would be a need for negotiations about changes to circumstances (e.g. fishing rights etc) but the same would be true of the rest of the UK. The loss of Scotland would change the UK's position within the EU, regardless of any existing provisions.

This would be true of both divorced parties. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.

Iz Logic : one is a member state, the other is a new state emerging from the other, and has no history proper, mmuch less title as a member, since the previous membership advantages it had stemmed from it being part of another country. At any rate, since membership requires certain economic traits, the balkanizing new state would have to be held in observation and assessed before being granted reentry, and you can be sure some small countries will insist on the whole reapplication process.

[mistermack]

Red Celt, that would be the argument that Scotland would have to put forward.
But the EU would have to agree to the mechanism, and the decision. Because none of it is there.
So good luck with all of that.

But don't pretend that it's already done, or a piece of cake. It ain't.

[Svartalf]

You call Salmond honest?

Statistically, it is unlikely.

But lancashire isn't trying to secede from the UK.

[Svartalf]

Red Celt, that would be the argument that Scotland would have to put forward.
But the EU would have to agree to the mechanism, and the decision. Because none of it is there.
So good luck with all of that.

But don't pretend that it's already done, or a piece of cake. It ain't.

Hey, you think the Scots will vote independence if it means being removed from the EU?

Of course some politicos put the rosy glasses on the process.

[Red Celt]

Not necessarily, as it can claim identity (less some territory) with the previous UK, so unless some prerequisite for membership was lost at the same time as scotland, their status could remain unchanged.

OK, let's take another member of the EU... say, Germany. If that were to split in two... say, oh I dunno... West Germany and East Germany, one of the countries would remain a member of the EU and the other wouldn't? Why try and treat Scotland differently to the rest of the UK? Scotland is already a member of the EU - via Westminster, rather than Holyrood.

Scottish independence shouldn't automatically result in Scotland losing something that it already has. There would be a need for negotiations about changes to circumstances (e.g. fishing rights etc) but the same would be true of the rest of the UK. The loss of Scotland would change the UK's position within the EU, regardless of any existing provisions.

This would be true of both divorced parties. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.

Scotland is not a member state of the EU any more than Lancashire is.

The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is not a member state of the EU, either.

[Svartalf]

Actually, it is. It's about to lose territory, but its institutions would show the continuity (dealing with Cameron and whatnot) to prove it.

[Red Celt]

Actually, it is. It's about to lose territory, but its institutions would show the continuity (dealing with Cameron and whatnot) to prove it.

Actually, it isn't. It would be a "new state", with different borders, different population, different fishing rights, different oil revenues, different military structure. Basically, it would be a very new creature. If Scotland is going to have difficulties with the EU, so will the new version of the UK.

[mistermack]

The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is not a member state of the EU, either.

Like I said earlier, that's not the UK problem. We're not going to sign ourselves out of the EU.
If Scotland wants out, Scotland has to sort it out.