An independent Scotland?

[Clinton Huxley]

I hear Spain may force Scotland to go through the accession process rather than allowing them to inherit membership from being part of the UK

[klr]

I hear Spain may force Scotland to go through the accession process rather than allowing them to inherit membership from being part of the UK

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised there. This is realpolitik, EU-style.

[Clinton Huxley]

I hear Spain may force Scotland to go through the accession process rather than allowing them to inherit membership from being part of the UK

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised there. This is realpolitik, EU-style.

they don't want to set a precedent for Catalonia.

[Svartalf]

Or rather they do want to set one that will discourage Barcelona from seceding.

[Clinton Huxley]

Or rather they do want to set one that will discourage Barcelona from seceding.

aye. And slippery Salmonella has gone all quiet about it

[klr]

I hear Spain may force Scotland to go through the accession process rather than allowing them to inherit membership from being part of the UK

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised there. This is realpolitik, EU-style.

they don't want to set a precedent for Catalonia.

... or the Basque region, or in fact just about anywhere else more than a stone's through beyond Madrid.

[ronmcd]

Or rather they do want to set one that will discourage Barcelona from seceding.

aye. And slippery Salmonella has gone all quiet about it

No, this is an old story, and the Spanish govt said it had nothing to do with them. But as has been mentioned already in this thread ... so what? It will all be sorted through negotiation, EU will not want Scotland out. England may want out ... I would suggest that is much more likely ...

[Clinton Huxley]

Old story? Was on Radio 4 today, Dr Pangloss.

[ronmcd]

Federalism only really works when most values across the border are the same, something like free university education one side of the order and £27k the other is not sustainable. Scotland is just so much community /left wing orientated than England is.

But "free university education" is not free in Scotland, the Scottish government pays for it out of the block grant. In the past, when education was "free" or subsidised in England & Wales, Scotland received funding to pay for those students. Now that Westminister has removed all the funding and passed it on to students to pay themselves, Scotland gets less money and is having to reduce spending elsewhere to pay for it. Because its a principle they want to continue. It's the UK which have decided to spend the money they USED to spend on education on something else. The point however is that if Scotland had control over ALL taxation and ALL spending then the funding for universities wouldnt be reduced. Scotland wouldnt be spending money on nukes, for example. Full control would result in balanced decisions on spending, to whatever priorities a govt wanted.

By saying its free on one side of the border but expensive on the other is missing the point - there are only so many places available at Scottish universities, a finite number of places, and with full control over tax and spending a govt could fund "free" universities just fine. Currently the Scottish govt are funding it despite a cut because of Westminister education policy to make the students pay.

If you see what I mean. Not sure I'm explaining what I mean very well ...

We aren't talking about relatively minor things like 2% extra sales tax or the death penalty changing across the border this is far more fundamental. Scotland having free education is fine if you have open borders for people to go and get it but I suspect that wouldnt be affordable

It would be the exact same as any EU country where other EU citizens could go. So lets say and independent Scotland had zero fees, and England had £27k. The universities are paid the money for fees by the Scottish government. So they have no reason to plump for English students over Scottish, it wouldnt make any difference. So all that would happen is Scottish universities would be hugely over subscribed from England, sure. And most would be disappointed, as only roughly the same proportion as currently would be accepted.

It's not a problem. In fact, it might help the situation by making Westminister start funding the English universities properly so they could retain their students ...

[ronmcd]

Old story? Was on Radio 4 today, Dr Pangloss.

I'm sure it was. The SNP conference started today, so Radio 4 have been - shock! - talking about Scotland and independence. The argument over Spain/(insert random EU country) objecting and somehow preventing Scotland's EU status is an old one, that was my point, the Telegraph/Daily Mail/Westminister politicians have been saying it for years without any evidence to support it. Along with Scotland being too wee, too poor, etc etc. I'd have been staggered if it hadn't been mentioned today on Radio 4 actually. Not every prediction made on Radio 4 today will come true.

Nicola Sturgeon was on Radio 4 today too. I bet she had a different prediction.

I go back to what I've said before, the EU will not want Scotland out. A large proportion of EU energy supplies & potential, fishing rights, 5 million current EU citizens from many different EU countries ... including Spain ... realpolitik indeed.

[Clinton Huxley]

If it is clear cut, salmonella can publish his legal advices now, yes?

[ronmcd]

If it is clear cut, salmonella can publish his legal advices now, yes?

To quote BBC Scotland political editor Brian Taylor (my emphasis):

Mr Salmond noted - rightly - that it has been a matter of principle for all governments to decline to publish or even acknowledge the existence of legal advice. That is to allow such advice to be given frankly and fully.

There are legal opinions out there on both sides, the legal advice is a red herring. No opinion matters except the EU, and there is no precedent. But the EU won't give their opinion, they want the politics sorted first. So they say. What I don't know is whether the EU won't give an opinion until the referendum result is known, or if they will do it before the referendum. I suspect after.

For the Scottish government, they have said they will release information :

At the very minimum, the controversy over the last couple of days leaves doubts in the air. Mr Salmond knows that - which is why he promised that the issue would be fully addressed in the Prospectus for independence which the Scottish Government will publish in October 2013, one year out from the referendum. That verdict, he said, would be founded upon legal advice.

[mistermack]

Ronmcd seems to be assuming that Scotland will AUTOMATICALLY be in the EU.

No it won't. There is no automatic mechanism. And to imagine that it will happen without a formal vote is just pie in the sky. Nobody gets in without a formal vote.

Some new mechanism will have to be agreed. And that in itself will be a big deal, and require a unanimous vote. Assuming that this is just going to happen is wishful thinking.

They would have to apply, just like anybody else. And I don't see any quotes from Spain saying they will or will not block it. Nor France. Nobody knows

[Red Celt]

Ronmcd seems to be assuming that Scotland will AUTOMATICALLY be in the EU.

No it won't. There is no automatic mechanism. And to imagine that it will happen without a formal vote is just pie in the sky. Nobody gets in without a formal vote.

Some new mechanism will have to be agreed. And that in itself will be a big deal, and require a unanimous vote. Assuming that this is just going to happen is wishful thinking.

They would have to apply, just like anybody else. And I don't see any quotes from Spain saying they will or will not block it. Nor France. Nobody knows

The same will presumably apply to the "new" country of The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Mistermack, whatever happens, it will be breaking new ground within the EU. Why you repeatedly insist that you somehow know the outcome (when nobody else does) is nothing more than amusing.

[Clinton Huxley]

If the advice is clear cut, I see no reason to withhold it.