Apelust comes to Rationalia?

[pErvinalia]

I really don't know if I can be bothered getting into it with you. Let's just say its the kind of parochial "the poor things just need re-education" bullshit one hears from the pulpit. Plus both are proclaiming "the middle classes have it tough too". They cannot possibly be wrong, the sinners just need guided to the light. I'm not about to bend the knee to Jehovah, I'm damn sure I'm not doing it for Gaia.

Now you're just being silly.

How is that different from usual?

[pErvinalia]

No I'm saying it comes off smug and condescending and slightly self congratulatory without saying much, like a sermon. "So a young lad came up to me and said Father, why is it Christians are under attack from the forces of Satan so often these days..."

What's strange is that you seem to have got this arse-about. The pertinent point about the first quote is about the "fear" that comfortable middle of the road people feel. What peddles in fear the best? Religion. If anything, the first quote is about anti-religious thinking. It's about looking at things rationally and unbiased.

[Robert_S]

No I'm saying it comes off smug and condescending and slightly self congratulatory without saying much, like a sermon. "So a young lad came up to me and said Father, why is it Christians are under attack from the forces of Satan so often these days..."

What's strange is that you seem to have got this arse-about. The pertinent point about the first quote is about the "fear" that comfortable middle of the road people feel. What peddles in fear the best? Religion. If anything, the first quote is about anti-religious thinking. It's about looking at things rationally and unbiased.

Would it be better if they advised people to reply thusly to the complaint that " all of a sudden the worst thing in the world you can be is a white, straight, middle class, Christian"

"Look, things are tough all over, but some people have it a lot rougher than your straight white middle class Christian self in ways you might not realize because you never had to live it. And by the way; you bitching and moaning about not having the right to deprive someone else of their rights isn't going to get any sympathy here. So buck up and realize that although having unearned advantages doesn't make you a jerk, crying like the world is coming to an end because the playing field is evening out a bit does.

By the way, here's what one of your fellow Christians has to say about your Christan "oppression": http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... ns-grow-up

[Audley Strange]

Yes, that would be much. much better.

[Audley Strange]

No I'm saying it comes off smug and condescending and slightly self congratulatory without saying much, like a sermon. "So a young lad came up to me and said Father, why is it Christians are under attack from the forces of Satan so often these days..."

What's strange is that you seem to have got this arse-about. The pertinent point about the first quote is about the "fear" that comfortable middle of the road people feel. What peddles in fear the best? Religion. If anything, the first quote is about anti-religious thinking. It's about looking at things rationally and unbiased.

Nah, you're misunderstanding me. You think I'm criticising content, I'm not. I'm criticising the attitude and the form especially since when one uses the same sort of argument as "suck it up people have it much fucking worse than you you spoilt fucking cow" to these preachers of all that is good and holy, they go fucking bananas. See "Dear Muslima" and see the reactions to my posts on this when I point out that too.

[pErvinalia]

I don't really get what you are getting at. I think you are misunderstanding the point of the article/quotes.

[Audley Strange]

I do get the point. Ever so clever warrior of truth comes to the aid of the frustrated ignoramus with the divine knowledge. Said person shows the sinner the error of their ways, but they did not have the eyes to hear nor the ears to see. They got angrier, but hey ho, as a witness for the revealed truth one tries.

Really? You don't see what's self aggrandising about that useless anecdote. It boils down to...

"Some dude was complaining"

"I stepped in and showed him how wrong he was."

"He got angry"

"I win."

Perhaps I am missing the point. Care to enlighten me?

[Cormac]

I do get the point. Ever so clever warrior of truth comes to the aid of the frustrated ignoramus with the divine knowledge. Said person shows the sinner the error of their ways, but they did not have the eyes to hear nor the ears to see. They got angrier, but hey ho, as a witness for the revealed truth one tries.

Really? You don't see what's self aggrandising about that useless anecdote. It boils down to...

"Some dude was complaining"

"I stepped in and showed him how wrong he was."

"He got angry"

"I win."

Perhaps I am missing the point. Care to enlighten me?

[pErvinalia]

I do get the point. Ever so clever warrior of truth comes to the aid of the frustrated ignoramus with the divine knowledge. Said person shows the sinner the error of their ways, but they did not have the eyes to hear nor the ears to see. They got angrier, but hey ho, as a witness for the revealed truth one tries.

Really? You don't see what's self aggrandising about that useless anecdote. It boils down to...

"Some dude was complaining"

"I stepped in and showed him how wrong he was."

"He got angry"

"I win."

Perhaps I am missing the point. Care to enlighten me?

The point wasn't the anecdote. The point was the thing about fear and comfort zone. Additionally the systemic nature of what's going on. Nothing you've said addresses any of that.

[Audley Strange]

No you're right, I'm addressing something else. I've pointed out what several times in several ways what that is and why I think its bullshit.

I think its a homily by the author to themselves, a little tale of the righteous witnessing to the unbeliever.

[Robert_S]

No you're right, I'm addressing something else. I've pointed out what several times in several ways what that is and why I think its bullshit.

I think its a homily by the author to themselves, a little tale of the righteous witnessing to the unbeliever.

I thought the point (of the article) was that the author found a softer approach where he tried some understanding and acknowledgement of the other person's point of view seemed to work better for him. IMO PZ's mob could probably benefit from that sermon.

[Audley Strange]

Well if that was the case it was an abject failure since they pissed the person off. One thing that bothers me about this "blame the patriarchal system" nonsense is this. Are they really saying that in and of itself a pluotcratic tyranny is fine, just as long as it is run by a rainbow conglomerate. Are they suggesting that everyone else can live in squalor but not complain because they're at least all in it together?

[Robert_S]

Well if that was the case it was an abject failure since they pissed the person off. One thing that bothers me about this "blame the patriarchal system" nonsense is this. Are they really saying that in and of itself a pluotcratic tyranny is fine, just as long as it is run by a rainbow conglomerate. Are they suggesting that everyone else can live in squalor but not complain because they're at least all in it together?

I don't see where you're getting any of that from, unless you're only reading the excerpts in the OP.

[Audley Strange]

No I've read the entire thing. The first sentence pertains to the anecdote itself the second is me just pondering aloud.

[Robert_S]

No I've read the entire thing. The first sentence pertains to the anecdote itself the second is me just pondering aloud.

Are they really saying that in and of itself a pluotcratic tyranny is fine, just as long as it is run by a rainbow conglomerate. Are they suggesting that everyone else can live in squalor but not complain because they're at least all in it together?

I said. “Plenty of us are struggling with real and tough things. Plenty of middle class White families are fighting in a system that is working against anyone who isn’t rich... "

In the case of the young man above, perhaps his family is struggling with the class inequality that is ever more present for middle class people of all races and he is projecting those concerns onto issues of race, religion, and sexual orientation.

No, I don't see anything there that would make me think this guy would support a rainbow plutocracy.