Metaphysics as an Error

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Surendra Darathy
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:07 pm

jamest wrote:Man, I don't understand any of that. I guess that qualifies me as a sceptic, then.
Let me give you again the science instructor's take on what the word "understand" means, because we are not discussing any concepts where understanding can be demonstrated.

First of all, a student will proclaim that he understands the material; later on the exam, when a problem is posed, he cannot produce the solution. We know that there is a solution because mathematics can be definite about such things.

Now back to the situation at hand, because it has to do with the difference between skepticism and rejection. It is not that a scientist will not reject some formulations, but this is only because, as on the exam, there is a mismatch between the correct solution demonstrated, and the incorrect solution provided. In a sense, the empirical stands in for the exam solution key when we are talking about "experience". It is not that woo is "rejected" except in the sense of a failure to have anything whatsoever to do with the answer key of the empirical.

This is not an issue for you, because you want to traffic in unfalsifiable woo, such as absolute truth, or something else similarly spooky. The reason you gravitate toward unfalsifiable woo is because you can make proclamations about it, which is what having smoked a bunch of absolutism will inspire you to do.
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by SpeedOfSound » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:17 pm

jamest wrote:Man, I don't understand any of that. I guess that qualifies me as a sceptic, then.
That's good. We all start out with this huge plain of slate. Not the blank kind, but one with some pre-constructed valleys. But it is mostly a smooth plain. The this thing we find ourselves in etches most details over the first 9 years of our lives. But it never stops etching. These details give us a sense or idea of something we call reality. This thing we find ourselves in is something we call physical. Something that always seems to happen in functioning humans is that we can know some consistent set of facts about this thing. That's all done with the etchings.

In the end all we have is our etchings. Do you want to stop up and see my etchings?
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Luis Dias » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:19 pm

jamest wrote:Stop digging holes Luis.
Buildings do need foundations you know? What do you know of architecture anyway?
You have no reason to reject the potential existence of God.
Everything's possible. Even "God". The million versions of it. And the gazillion versions of its "non existence". Get back to me when you have some *evidence* for such a being. Until then, I'll ignore it, not reject it, and put in the same room where I left ghosts, unicorns, werewolves, fairies, santa clauses, etc. to rot...
Fancy a flutter on Pascal's horse?
You can't be serious. You are digging up Pascal? He's probably the most retarded theologian in history. And a reminder for all of us of what is bound to happen when otherwise brilliant minds take metaphysics "seriously".

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Matthew Shute » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:49 pm

jamest wrote:Fancy a flutter on Pascal's horse?
Luis Dias wrote:You are digging up Pascal? He's probably the most retarded theologian in history.
Yes, the famous wager is pathetic. Richard Carrier makes short work of it:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... eaven.html

In The God Delusion, Dawkins also jokes about a God who would punish "belief" that is feigned in order to gain a reward. Perhaps even Pascal was joking when he made his wager. James, if you are trying to insult the intelligence of every participant in this thread, you're going about it the right way.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:11 pm

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
As for the claim that I am misrepresenting metaphysics - by little idiot - that is preposterous. Reality is the whole of existence, or at least, reality pertains to what exists. The two are inexorably linked insofar as they are defined in the context of metaphysics. With metaphysical existence discounted within metaphysics, metaphysical reality is rendered inert. This 'error' that I have supposedly made is a red herring.
So what do the two words mean to you (reality and existence), you want to point out the similarities and differences?
It would appear that you are trying to say there are no differences, therefore you are correct to be able to exchange them as you did in the OP? were the two words identical in meaning, then my making a distinction is 'preposterous' as you suggest.

Is it that you really dont know the difference? :hehe:
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:38 pm

Little Idiot wrote:So what do the two words mean to you (reality and existence), you want to point out the similarities and differences?

It would appear that you are trying to say there are no differences, therefore you are correct to be able to exchange them as you did in the OP? were the two words identical in meaning, then my making a distinction is 'preposterous' as you suggest.

Is it that you really dont know the difference?
Both "reality" and "existence" are catch-all terms that are too imprecise to discuss amongst people who actually have a goal in conducting a discussion. This is fine with me; bullshitting one another is a fine way to pass the time.

"Reality" and "existence" are fine for relative use. They're good for trying to say what "dreaming" is about, for example. You can write a very real book about a very imaginary pink unicorn.

You can even give words like these technical definitions which are only valid within a technical field.
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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by SpeedOfSound » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:42 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
As for the claim that I am misrepresenting metaphysics - by little idiot - that is preposterous. Reality is the whole of existence, or at least, reality pertains to what exists. The two are inexorably linked insofar as they are defined in the context of metaphysics. With metaphysical existence discounted within metaphysics, metaphysical reality is rendered inert. This 'error' that I have supposedly made is a red herring.
So what do the two words mean to you (reality and existence), you want to point out the similarities and differences?
It would appear that you are trying to say there are no differences, therefore you are correct to be able to exchange them as you did in the OP? were the two words identical in meaning, then my making a distinction is 'preposterous' as you suggest.

Is it that you really dont know the difference? :hehe:
It's so cute when you wriggle around like that. You and jamest are the ones claiming to have some deep knowledge of these common fisherman words.

Joe "I'm gonna catch a 25 pound bass otta lake Vermillion"
Me "You ain't livin' in the real world Joe. Bass that big don't exist in Minnesota"

If you want to claim some use for metaphysics then start ponying up the metaphysical details on these two words.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by jamest » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:50 pm

No, I wasn't being serious when I mentioned Pascal's wager. Lighten up guys.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:58 pm

SpeedOfSound wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
As for the claim that I am misrepresenting metaphysics - by little idiot - that is preposterous. Reality is the whole of existence, or at least, reality pertains to what exists. The two are inexorably linked insofar as they are defined in the context of metaphysics. With metaphysical existence discounted within metaphysics, metaphysical reality is rendered inert. This 'error' that I have supposedly made is a red herring.
So what do the two words mean to you (reality and existence), you want to point out the similarities and differences?
It would appear that you are trying to say there are no differences, therefore you are correct to be able to exchange them as you did in the OP? were the two words identical in meaning, then my making a distinction is 'preposterous' as you suggest.

Is it that you really dont know the difference? :hehe:
It's so cute when you wriggle around like that. You and jamest are the ones claiming to have some deep knowledge of these common fisherman words.

Joe "I'm gonna catch a 25 pound bass otta lake Vermillion"
Me "You ain't livin' in the real world Joe. Bass that big don't exist in Minnesota"

If you want to claim some use for metaphysics then start ponying up the metaphysical details on these two words.
Obviously I will provide answers to the questions of reality and existence. But dont spoil my fun, let me toy with 'the original arrogant bastard' (his choice of words not mine) first. He asked for it by being so belittling to my gentle posts earlier in the thread, and refusing to raise the game above the petty exchange of insults.
He will pony up his understanding, I hope, and so I have dragged him from his comfort zone of petty insults and ego feeding conflict into the heady atmosphere of real philosophy.

Note also that Jamest and I may or may not claim to have the knowledge, thats not the point of this thread, what we are claiming is that such knowledge should rightly be persued through metaphysics.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Surendra Darathy » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:31 pm

Little Idiot wrote:what we are claiming is that such knowledge should rightly be persued through metaphysics.
Rightly? WTF? Waddup widdat?

See, Lil Eejit, "pursuing" something implies taking some care in doing so. Watch yo mouf.
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:46 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
As for the claim that I am misrepresenting metaphysics - by little idiot - that is preposterous. Reality is the whole of existence, or at least, reality pertains to what exists. The two are inexorably linked insofar as they are defined in the context of metaphysics. With metaphysical existence discounted within metaphysics, metaphysical reality is rendered inert. This 'error' that I have supposedly made is a red herring.
So what do the two words mean to you (reality and existence), you want to point out the similarities and differences?
They have many meanings to me. What is meaningless, to me, however, is the 'metaphysical reality' and the 'metaphysical existence', which - no - I do not understand or claim to understand. I don't think anyone understands it, and I have good grounds on which to say that no one can understand it.
It would appear that you are trying to say there are no differences, therefore you are correct to be able to exchange them as you did in the OP? were the two words identical in meaning, then my making a distinction is 'preposterous' as you suggest.
This is not necessarily the case, if they are related in nature, than making the distinction is preposterous as well. If I attack the existence of God, and disprove his existence, the existence of the Holy Spirit can be taken to be disproven as well.
Is it that you really dont know the difference? :hehe:
I don't claim to know metaphysics, so there's a lot that I don't know. More importantly, you don't know either. You're just bullshitting and pretending to.
The original arrogant bastard.
Quod tanto impendio absconditur etiam solummodo demonstrare destruere est - Tertullian

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by jamest » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:55 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:
jamest wrote:Man, I don't understand any of that. I guess that qualifies me as a sceptic, then.
Let me give you again the science instructor's take on what the word "understand" means, because we are not discussing any concepts where understanding can be demonstrated.

First of all, a student will proclaim that he understands the material; later on the exam, when a problem is posed, he cannot produce the solution. We know that there is a solution because mathematics can be definite about such things.

Now back to the situation at hand, because it has to do with the difference between skepticism and rejection. It is not that a scientist will not reject some formulations, but this is only because, as on the exam, there is a mismatch between the correct solution demonstrated, and the incorrect solution provided. In a sense, the empirical stands in for the exam solution key when we are talking about "experience". It is not that woo is "rejected" except in the sense of a failure to have anything whatsoever to do with the answer key of the empirical.

This is not an issue for you, because you want to traffic in unfalsifiable woo, such as absolute truth, or something else similarly spooky. The reason you gravitate toward unfalsifiable woo is because you can make proclamations about it, which is what having smoked a bunch of absolutism will inspire you to do.
You know, science is about the discernment of order inherent within the realm of one's study. If I was to make a cartoon of sufficient ordered complexity, the scientific approach could quite easily be adopted to discern the order therein (Given that Wile E. Coyote is an arbitrary 2 pinkies high, for example, we can discern his maximum rate of motion to be 8.45 pinkies per second. And so forth...).

Science gives me lots of arbitrary information like that, about the particular realm known as 'the world'. But could it ever inform me of a realm beyond and distinct to that world?
Why do you think not? All that would be required would be info that was at-odds with a view of the world being a realm of different bodies all interacting and affecting one another within the dimensions of space-time. Alternatively, we could just amend our definition of the world to fit in with the new information, thus avoiding metaphysics. However, if that information threatens to re-define the world as 'One', then what?

Personally, I already think that there's enough info within QM and relativity, to make such a call. But I wouldn't want to take that long-winded route to One, so I won't bother you with any of that. My primary concern, here, is why you absolutely rule-out the possibility of science providing info useful for metaphysics. I want you to answer, because I suspect that I might be able to infer an ontology from you. And then I can gloat.

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Re: Metaphysics as a possibility

Post by jamest » Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:50 am

Perhaps we can try a different tack. Some people have complained that there are no means of doing metaphysics, so I will attempt to show the initial approach of my own metaphysic and see what comes of that.

If I were to present the entirety of my own metaphysic, here, I know that I wouldn't get past first base with many of the readers here present. That is, they would immediately find fault with my initial premises. I certainly understand why my premises could be rejected as assumptions, or for some other technicality. But, believe it or not, my metaphysic begins where yours dies: with 'the world'. Then, in a nutshell, I reduce that world to its underlying constituents: ordered quale, appearing as the world to 'something', which interprets the ordered quale as that world. The objective of the argument is to say something metaphysically significant about 'something'. But my main concern here is to show that there is a credible approach to starting a metaphysic, so let's now just concentrate on discussing this.

Yes, there will be specific complaints about this or that, from above; but my primary concern is to show that there are means of acquiring knowledge that physics cannot give to us. The internal or external nature of 'the world', for instance, is something beyond the scope of physics, yet reason dictates that the objects in the world must either be internal or external to whatever it is that I am. Further reasoning can then be employed in consideration of which of those options must be true. For instance, I would say that an observed entity, such as 'a tree', is an event happening to 'me', whatever I am - even if that is just a brain inside a human body. That is, the tree is something internalized. It is a self-constructed representation of something. How could this idea be rejected, then, other than to argue for the externalized reality of everything that is observed? But, wherein lies the sense in that? You may then say (as your scepticism would necessitate) that we cannot know either way whether the tree is internalized or externalized. But I say that we can, by analysing the distinction between myself, the tree, and my observation of a tree. Consider this:

a) There is me.
b) There is a tree.
c) There is my observation of the tree.

If an external-to-me entity, the tree would have to exist independently of my observation of it. That is, its reality would not be synonymous with my observation of it. So, even if existent externally to 'me', what I observe of the tree is an internalized entity. And, as a self-constructed representation, then how is it constructed? Well, it doesn't take much consideration to see that internalized entities are products of quale/sensations - I observe an object via the particular manner/order in which sensations of it are presented to my awareness. For instance, the internalized Sun can be defined in terms of its rounded yellowness and heat, to say the least.

I anticipate - as would be usual - a barrage of "What is yellowness?" and "What is heat?" questions. Well, as I said in the thread at RDnet, I can only talk about love to those that have loved. Likewise, I can only talk about sensations to those that have them. It's no use trying to explain what it's like to sense colours, to a blind man. No amount of information will yield an insight into what it is like to know colours and sounds and pain and love, etc.. So, I won't bother trying. My metaphysic is not dependent upon explaining what sensations are to those that do not know. My metaphysic is presented to those that need no explanation. If you are one of those individuals, then read-on. If not, then don't forget to recharge your battery later.

There are other approaches to showing that the world is internalized. We could discuss the values and definitions we impose upon that world, for instance. Or we could discuss the nature of sensations such as 'pain' and 'cold', which are obviously self-constructs facilitating a favourable result for the entity that experiences those sensations. For example, to feel pain when touching a flame with our hands, is a good thing in that it facilitates a recoil from that flame, thus preserving the form and function of the hands. A similar thing could be said of 'cold' (or 'hot') - that the world is not cold or hot, but that such sensations are self-constructs facilitating the preservation of both form and function, of the body.

My metaphysic expands upon the above and then progresses from it. If, for example, the world is internalized - a self-construct - then there is a distinction to be made between the world and that which views the construct. In normal parlance, I would say that there is a distinction between perceiver and perceived.
More significantly, when discussing the 'make-up' of this experience that we call 'the world', one has to define experience not just in terms of those things that are experienced, but in terms of the perceiver too; or, in terms of that which constructs and then observes those things. This brings me to Kant, who basically said that we cannot know anything beyond experience. I wouldn't disagree with that per se, but I would now add that since 'experience' is more than those things that are experienced - that is, since any definition of 'experience' would now have to embrace "that which constructs and then observes those things" - then speaking of the self as distinct to the world, does not exceed the boundaries laid-down by Kant. All I have done here, essentially, is expose the limitations of Kant's understanding of experience. My claim is that once defined properly, my conclusions are metaphysical, but do not transgress any lines drawn by Kant.

Anyway, I shall leave it there. As I said, my primary concern is to show the potentiality for constructing a specific metaphysic. At this juncture, the finale of that metaphysic is not important.
As always, serious critiques are welcomed.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by RebeccaSmick » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:35 am

RebeccaSmick"Is this skepticism something that people can actually live by and thus attain this state of ataraxia?
I can only report that I feel a lot less perplexed after adopting it.
I hear that meditation can do the same and more... at least that's what the mystics claim and the evidence points to.
RebeccaSmick Sounds a lot like a Buddhist... Although while a Buddhist sets out to end suffering, a pyrrhoist seeks an end to perplexity which is the cause of suffering.
I don't like using the word 'suffering' for dukkha, because that's such a horrible and misleading translation. I hope you don't see this as pedantic nitpicking, but the difference between the connontations of the two words is so big that leaving it unclarified can lead to a huge misunderstanding, in my experience. I just mention this to help avoid that kind of misunderstanding.
Perhaps a misunderstanding could arise. I don't know. I've never had that experience before. I just think that two intelligent people can, most times, talk about something on the same footing without misconstruing what one or the other is trying to convey. So, I don't put too much weight on any such distinction myself. At least not while chatting with you... ;)
I think it would be most accurate to say that the Pyrrhonist position on Truth (as certain knowledge) is agnostic, but not committed to agnosticism.
I don't see much, if any, difference between suspending judgment forever and claiming we're not able to find objective truth. As far as I can tell, one stance claims to be open to having the matter settled while at the same time claiming there is no way for humans to settle the matter, and the other simply outright states it cannot be done.
However, I can only talk about my own experience, since I have no idea what others set out to do. Yes, I started out seeking the 'Truth' (a completely accurate metaphysical position on the way things actually are), but every time I thought I had a grip on it, I would run into a contrary position that, when I removed my bias, would be equally convincing. This went on for decades. (I'm a slow learner. :oops: ) I gave up in frustration, actually. After reading about things like Godel's Incompleteness Theorum, Hume's problem of induction, etc, and eventually Pyrrhonism, I realized that I could be happy with not having a final answer. Why? Because not only have greater minds than my own been unable to find certainty, there's a pretty good chance that certainty is impossible. I still keep my mind open to evidence for certainty, but so far I just keep running into one unfounded opinion after another. Every serious metaphysical position I've run across has an equally convincing negation. That's why we keep running around in circles in threads like this; there's no more evidence for one position over the other. Just people throwing their favorite opinions at each other. :dono:
My happiness doesn't depend on whether or not I find certainty either. However, I think holding to a healthy bit of skepticism and always being open to consider new evidence is just a smart thing to do. I've underlined in your comments above what I would consider to be a confirmation of just what I was talking about when I said: 'As far as I can tell, one stance claims to be open to having the matter settled while at the same time claiming there is no way for humans to settle the matter, and the other simply outright states it cannot be done.'. I, also, think this is another example of what Burnyeat was getting at in his work, Can the Skeptic Live His Skepticism?, which I get into a little more below.. It is a very difficult position to constantly maintain, even if true, and I agree with his reasoning as to why it is not possible. Thanks for sharing your story though.
Have you read, M. Burnyeat's Can the Skeptic Live His Skepticism?...
Only selections from it.
I've, also, read a few fairly good reviews on it as well.. Two that stuck out is where one attempted to differ with his conclusion in interpretation and the other, while granting his conclusion to a more general populace (the wanna-be skeptics), would still claim that living the life of a skeptic is possible if constant and diligent and very careful attending to the position is maintained at all times. If you'd be interested I could probably dig up the links for you? I doubt if the Can the Skeptic Live His Skepticism is on-line, but I know these reviews are or were.
According to Burnyeat:

"A marked passivity in the face of both his sensations and his own thought processes is an important aspect of the skeptic’s detachment from himself."
As per the citation above... passivity in the face of sensations and thought processes and a detachment from oneself..
Sounds just like a mystic on a mountain top meditating doesn't it?
It could, I suppose, but it doesn't necessitate that image, I think.
From what I've read about Pyrrhon, he was akin to any other mystic meditating. The results he claimed would be bestowed upon a practicing disciple of radical skepticism are akin to what any guru would tell a practicing student of meditation they could expect.
I've never read anything about Pyrrho or his students meditating on a mountaintop.
Didn't say they did. Just saying that it seems to be the case that the results from practicing a form of spiritual/mystical meditation or living the life of a radical skeptic are not very different.
I took your referencing Kuzminski to mean that you had read the book-Pyrrhonism-How The Ancient Greeks Reinvented Buddhism.
:tup: :biggrin:
Great, then you know what I'm talking about here.
My you live as long as you want and not want as long as you live.

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Re: Metaphysics as an Error

Post by Little Idiot » Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:07 am

Surendra Darathy wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:what we are claiming is that such knowledge should rightly be persued through metaphysics.
Rightly? WTF? Waddup widdat?

See, Lil Eejit, "pursuing" something implies taking some care in doing so. Watch yo mouf.
Does it? I thought the major implication was an attempt to aquire the object of pursuit.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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