All is not well in the UK's Socialist Utopia

[Pappa]

I lean to the liberal left too, but this is a step too far.

Things like Judo, Taikwando (sp?) and the like are great for kids. They teach self discipline, confidence and help keep them fit. I don't for the life of me see how they can be seen as promoting violence as a solution to the resolution of problems.

Plus, courts traditionally treat people who misuse martial arts quite severely.

[Seth]

Just remember to serpentine when you're fleeing that gun toting assailant and don't do a perfect sine wave.

Your every day scenario?, get 2 metres from the gunman with current population density in a city you will probably have a couple of other people between you and the gun man so you are out of the killzone. Then again I suppose some handguns can probably shoot through 2 people and get the 3rd but I'm sure Seth would know more about that than I would

More sensibly if you are a gun man, walk up to the person you want to shoot who almost certainly will be in a crowd, shoot him no one will notice and walk off. No nasty chase and you will be ok until the police see you on CCTV and just arrest your arse

What a load of crap.

[Seth]

If you son was being bullied at school and had the choice between hitting the bully back or being able to go and report it to the teacher what would you tell them to do?

If someone is put in a headlock (not your every day situation) and knows how to get out of it, knock the bully to the floor and then go and get the authorities then no problem, what I don't want to see it being seen as a good thing to teach the bully a lesson he won't forget that's the laws job not anyone else's

Personal anecdote time!

When I was in highschool I was still trying to be a goody christian (Jehovah's Witness variety is explicitly non-violent) and was bullied pretty badly mostly because I refused to fight back.. until one day in class one of the biggest bullies was talking shit to me and I had enough so I told him to shut the fuck up or put up. On the way out of the classroom I was chatting with my friends when I was hit by a sudden blinding pain - the bully had waited just outside the door and punched me in the eye as I exited. I snapped. I don't remember exacty what happened, but when I regained my senses I was pounding his head with my fist. The teacher, who knew about the bullying but did nothing, shouted at me to stop. I didn't. The teacher tackled me knocking me face first into the brick wall and while I was stunned from that the bully took the opportunity to come over and get a few cheap shots in.. we were both suspended for two weeks. The principle didn't give a shit about the bullying, neither did the teacher, but when I came back after suspension nobody messed with me again. Even the bully was quiet when I passed him in the hall.

Point is that the authority figures often don't give a rats ass.

When I was in elementary school, the school bully, Jon Williams (now deceased...shived in prison ) had it in for me and one day, as I was standing minding my own business on the playground, he came up behind me, knocked me flat on my face, sat on my back and proceeded to grind my face into the gravel. A teacher broke it up and we were sent to the Principal's office, me with blood and stones still stuck to my face. When we got there, the Principal scolded us both for "fighting" and proceeded to bend both of us over his desk and give us three swats with a wooden paddle...all without ever even bothering to ask or listen to what happened.

That particular episode is largely responsible for me becoming a police officer and it strongly influences my sense of justice and fair play.

So, in Junior High, when the school bully (a different one) started pushing me around in the locker room after gym class, I'd finally had it and hauled off and smacked him one in the face. A brave effort I suppose, but ineffective as I didn't know how to throw a punch, much less block one (I do now), so he proceeded to beat the ever-living shit out of me and left me with a black eye and bloody nose on the floor of the locker room. Absolutely nothing whatever was done to him for this assault.

This particular episode taught me that one should avoid physical confrontations as much as possible because it's painful even if you win, which resulted in my great skill at talking down belligerent drunks and druggies in my job, which resulted in me having only one or two actual fights during my career.

But it also taught me that if I'm forced to fight, there is no such thing as a "fair" fight and I'm going to put my opponent down as quickly, effectively and brutally as is required to end the confrontation as quickly as possible. I have no compunctions whatever about kicking some belligerent jerk in the nuts rather than bust my hand trying duke it out, because I don't care whether he thinks it's unfair...he should have availed himself of the opportunity to walk away, or let me walk away.

And if he pulls a knife or a gun, I'm going to shoot him without hesitation.

Because I'm not a fucking pansy coward who is too much of a pussy to defend himself and who foists his personal safety off on others, so THEY can get hurt in his stead. Fuck those kind of people sideways with a corn cob.

[pErvinalia]

self defence =/= "go around bashing up people you think may be 'bad' guys". Where do you get this stuff from?

edit: this is in reply to some bollocks Jonno posted a couple of pages back.

[pErvinalia]

'Self defence' is not going 'around bashing up people you think may be 'bad' guys' it is the ability to defend yourself should you be attacked. More importantly perhaps having the skills potentially gives you more confidence to stand up for yourself or just to develop confidence.

Nobody as far as I can see is promoting vigilantism.

The only way someone should be defending themselves is getting away from the situation, if and only if any lessons encourage the minimum level of violence to this I might accept this but if at any point it turns into how to win a fight that it becomes extremely suspect. I'm also a bit concerned about having martial art skills = makes you more confident to stand up for yourself, what exactly do you mean by that?

You really have no clue about self defence, do you?

[pErvinalia]

Just remember to serpentine when you're fleeing that gun toting assailant and don't do a perfect sine wave.

Your every day scenario?, get 2 metres from the gunman with current population density in a city you will probably have a couple of other people between you and the gun man so you are out of the killzone. Then again I suppose some handguns can probably shoot through 2 people and get the 3rd but I'm sure Seth would know more about that than I would

More sensibly if you are a gun man, walk up to the person you want to shoot who almost certainly will be in a crowd, shoot him no one will notice and walk off. No nasty chase and you will be ok until the police see you on CCTV and just arrest your arse

Lol. I didn't realise the world was like Blade Runner. What a load of bollocks. I've been to London and not seen another person walking on the same street I was. And the rest of the world is not as densely populated as London, so it's even more likely that it won't be a "crowd".

[pErvinalia]

If you son was being bullied at school and had the choice between hitting the bully back or being able to go and report it to the teacher what would you tell them to do?

If someone is put in a headlock (not your every day situation) and knows how to get out of it, knock the bully to the floor and then go and get the authorities then no problem, what I don't want to see it being seen as a good thing to teach the bully a lesson he won't forget that's the laws job not anyone else's

Personal anecdote time!

When I was in highschool I was still trying to be a goody christian (Jehovah's Witness variety is explicitly non-violent) and was bullied pretty badly mostly because I refused to fight back.. until one day in class one of the biggest bullies was talking shit to me and I had enough so I told him to shut the fuck up or put up. On the way out of the classroom I was chatting with my friends when I was hit by a sudden blinding pain - the bully had waited just outside the door and punched me in the eye as I exited. I snapped. I don't remember exacty what happened, but when I regained my senses I was pounding his head with my fist. The teacher, who knew about the bullying but did nothing, shouted at me to stop. I didn't. The teacher tackled me knocking me face first into the brick wall and while I was stunned from that the bully took the opportunity to come over and get a few cheap shots in.. we were both suspended for two weeks. The principle didn't give a shit about the bullying, neither did the teacher, but when I came back after suspension nobody messed with me again. Even the bully was quiet when I passed him in the hall.

Point is that the authority figures often don't give a rats ass.

Despite this being an anecdote, this mirrors all the professional advice and understanding that I've seen. Bullies look for easy victims. If you stand up for yourself, you are less likely to get bullied. And also, as you say, teachers are letting kids down in regard to bullying. You'd have to live under a rock to not know this. And I suspect very strongly that Jonno metaphorically lives under a rock.

[pErvinalia]

Maybe in the land of fairytale litigation is a solution. The real world is rarely like that in these kinds of scenarios.

Sueing seems to be quite common, the government should also have the ability to shutdown a school if it doesn't do anything about it, but if should still be child tells teacher, parents tell teacher, parents threaten legal action with teacher, then kid beats bully up

"should" "should" "should" blah blah blah. And then there's the real world.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think MrJonno got beat up a lot when he was a kid.

[Robert_S]

I think MrJonno got beat up a lot when he was a kid.

Or maybe not at all.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think MrJonno got beat up a lot when he was a kid.

Or maybe not at all.

So, disappointment?

[Robert_S]

I think MrJonno got beat up a lot when he was a kid.

Or maybe not at all.

So, disappointment?

I just don't think he's had much experience, or maybe his was vastly different from mine.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think MrJonno got beat up a lot when he was a kid.

Or maybe not at all.

So, disappointment?

I just don't think he's had much experience, or maybe his was vastly different from mine.

It would be surprising if he hadn't encountered bullying in school. Running away from them only provides amusement. One of my classmates got a broken arm from a couple of bullies once. His father taught him and me a few things and life was easier after that. (Dad was a retired Marine, I've mentioned him before.)

[NineBerry]

I was a victim of bullying at school. One day I was seriously bullied by a boy who called me stupid. The next day I took an axe to school and chopped his head off. That ended all the bullying.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I was a victim of bullying at school. One day I was seriously bullied by a boy who called me stupid. The next day I took an axe to school and chopped his head off. That ended all the bullying.

See? If more people were proactive like that we'd have less bullying. Well done.