Unicef criticises Britain for jailing children over riots

[Exi5tentialist]

The Guardian today reports that UN children's fund says figures showing 45% of under-18s detained over riots had no criminal history.

The report is worrying because

The latest Ministry of Justice figures show that more than 40% of the 269 children whose court hearings were not completed by mid-September were remanded in custody. This compares with an average remand rate of 10% last year. Of those on remand, 60% had no previous convictions and 45% had had no contact with the judicial system at all, including official reprimands or warnings. Despite declining rates of child incarceration rates, UK agencies warned that Britain still imprisoned more children than any other country in western Europe and after the riots the child population in prison jumped by up to 8%.

Britain has an ancient, intensely punitive, theistically-based legal system which needs to be done away with and replaced with something more human-orientated. We shouldn't be incarcerating this many children - this "wrath of God" approach to justice should be stopped.

[mistermack]

The problem is not enough jail.
Who gives a toss if they re-offend? They will anyway. The purpose of jail is to punish and deter. I don't know where this fiction about reforming criminals came from. They will reform when THEY want to reform.
And that involves getting caught and getting locked up in a nasty brutish place. When they get sick of that, they might reform.

I would just build more prison places, spend fuck-all on psychologists and psychiatrists, completely scrap probation altogether. But supply accommodation for a suitable period after release.

Prisons don't reform people. Just the ones that want it anyway. Just lock em up like you're supposed to, and spend the absolute minimum.

[Exi5tentialist]

Punishment - the inflicting of pain by the state - is a theistic legacy. You sound like a 19th century cleric. The only purpose of the judicial system should be risk assessment and rehabilitation.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Punishment - the inflicting of pain by the state - is a theistic legacy. You sound like a 19th century cleric. The only purpose of the judicial system should be risk assessment and rehabilitation.

Not removing a menace from society?

[mistermack]

Punishment - the inflicting of pain by the state - is a theistic legacy. You sound like a 19th century cleric. The only purpose of the judicial system should be risk assessment and rehabilitation.

Risk assessment should be carried out for sentencing. It's only fucking guesswork anyway.
Rehab is bollocks. It doesn't do any good and is a complete waste of money. If you stop all rehab, you can spend the money saved on keeping them inside for longer.

[Exi5tentialist]

Punishment - the inflicting of pain by the state - is a theistic legacy. You sound like a 19th century cleric. The only purpose of the judicial system should be risk assessment and rehabilitation.

Risk assessment should be carried out for sentencing. It's only fucking guesswork anyway.
Rehab is bollocks. It doesn't do any good and is a complete waste of money. If you stop all rehab, you can spend the money saved on keeping them inside for longer.

As I said, punishment is a theistic legacy. You might want to investigate your Christian roots, mistermack. Here's a starting point at the Christian Post. Apparently prison is a metaphor for the Christian concept of Hell:-

In the Bible, the “county jail” of hell is identified by the Greek name “Hades,” which is translated as “hell.” Hades is the “holding cell” of hell where the departed souls of unbelievers go until they are brought before the Judge in God’s courtroom. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.” (2 Cor. 5:10) The county jail of hell is where the rich man in Luke 16 remains to this day as he too awaits his day in court. Isn’t it interesting how this man suddenly became an evangelist after he landed in Hades? He desperately wanted to warn his five brothers “so that they will not also come to this place of torment.” (Luke 16:28) No one in Hades wants their loved ones to join them there. Once a person dies and arrives in Hades, his eternal fate in hell is sealed. One hour in Hades is enough to convince anyone that his pursuit of sinful pleasures on earth was tragically misguided.

[Exi5tentialist]

Punishment - the inflicting of pain by the state - is a theistic legacy. You sound like a 19th century cleric. The only purpose of the judicial system should be risk assessment and rehabilitation.

Not removing a menace from society?

That would come under risk assessment and I suppose risk management. The Christian bit is the bit that is deliberately designed to inflict pain or extract a price. That's the bit I find very theistic, and mistermack seems to be well into it.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Punishment - the inflicting of pain by the state - is a theistic legacy. You sound like a 19th century cleric. The only purpose of the judicial system should be risk assessment and rehabilitation.

Not removing a menace from society?

That would come under risk assessment and I suppose risk management. The Christian bit is the bit that is deliberately designed to inflict pain or extract a price. That's the bit I find very theistic, and mistermack seems to be well into it.

I think that you will find that state retribution and punishment for crimes far outdates christianity. Check out the Greek and Roman penal systems.

[Exi5tentialist]

I think that you will find that state retribution and punishment for crimes far outdates christianity. Check out the Greek and Roman penal systems.

I think you will find that Greece and Rome were theistic societies. Indeed, Rome embraced Christianity as its imperial religion. In many ways Christianity as we know it is a Roman legacy, so I think you will find that I am being quite consistent when I say that punishment as the inflicting of pain by the state is a theistic legacy.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I think that you will find that state retribution and punishment for crimes far outdates christianity. Check out the Greek and Roman penal systems.

I think you will find that Greece and Rome were theistic societies. Indeed, Rome embraced Christianity as its imperial religion. In many ways Christianity as we know it is a Roman legacy, so I think you will find that I am being quite consistent when I say that punishment as the inflicting of pain by the state is a theistic legacy.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You really are in a snarky, argumentative mood today.

Firstly, the Roman state long preceded christianity and, since I mentioned that state retribution and punishment outdates christianity and gave ancient Rome as an example, it should have been obvious that I was NOT referring to post-Constantine Rome above.

Secondly, pretty much every pre-christian society had some kind of ingrained religious faith. The polytheistic societies of Rome and Greece were streets away from the kind of theocracy you seem to be referring to, with rewards for the good and punishment for the bad. The gods of these two states were naturalistic anthropormorphisations that passed their time squabbling among themselves with humanity getting caught in the crossfire, as opposed to omnipotent, omniscient lawgivers. If you can call ancient Rome and Greece "theistic", you can call virtually any state that has ever existed theistic.

Thirdly, I really have no interest in discussing this or anything with you any further. You are tiresome in the extreme in your insistence on being right in every glib, unsubstantiated, monochromatic claim that you make. While you remain in this mood, I have entered you on my foe list so that I no longer have to see any of the garbage that you spew. I strongly urge anyone that feels the same and is inclined to resort to personal attacks on you to do the same - while they will not be tolerated here, issuing reminders when they are so clearly warranted sticks in my craw a little.

Goodbye.

[mistermack]

As I said, punishment is a theistic legacy. You might want to investigate your Christian roots, mistermack. Here's a starting point at the Christian Post. Apparently prison is a metaphor for the Christian concept of Hell:-

I don't give a toss about my roots. People get sent to jail because they caused serious harm to other people. If someone hits me, I just feel like hitting them back. Is that Christian?
You might want to investigate your pagan roots. You will find that retribution is far older than Christianity. If someone abuses me, I try to give them the same.
If someone abuses the society we live in, then I want them to feel the same.

If it's to do with Christianity, then I suppose Jesus must have said "fuck the little children, lock up the thieving little bastards". And not "turn the other cheek".
Or just maybe, your own ideas are a bit closer to "your christian roots" than mine are.

[Exi5tentialist]

I think that you will find that state retribution and punishment for crimes far outdates christianity. Check out the Greek and Roman penal systems.

I think you will find that Greece and Rome were theistic societies. Indeed, Rome embraced Christianity as its imperial religion. In many ways Christianity as we know it is a Roman legacy, so I think you will find that I am being quite consistent when I say that punishment as the inflicting of pain by the state is a theistic legacy.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You really are in a snarky, argumentative mood today.

Firstly, the Roman state long preceded christianity and, since I mentioned that state retribution and punishment outdates christianity and gave ancient Rome as an example, it should have been obvious that I was NOT referring to post-Constantine Rome above.

Secondly, pretty much every pre-christian society had some kind of ingrained religious faith. The polytheistic societies of Rome and Greece were streets away from the kind of theocracy you seem to be referring to, with rewards for the good and punishment for the bad. The gods of these two states were naturalistic anthropormorphisations that passed their time squabbling among themselves with humanity getting caught in the crossfire, as opposed to omnipotent, omniscient lawgivers. If you can call ancient Rome and Greece "theistic", you can call virtually any state that has ever existed theistic.

Thirdly, I really have no interest in discussing this or anything with you any further. You are tiresome in the extreme in your insistence on being right in every glib, unsubstantiated, monochromatic claim that you make. While you remain in this mood, I have entered you on my foe list so that I no longer have to see any of the garbage that you spew. I strongly urge anyone that feels the same and is inclined to resort to personal attacks on you to do the same - while they will not be tolerated here, issuing reminders when they are so clearly warranted sticks in my craw a little.

Goodbye.

No, I am not being deliberately obtuse. There is no need to wheel out that over-worn phrase just because I have said something you disagree with. I made the point earlier in this thread that I think punishment is a theistic concept. This is not to do with my "mood" it is to do with my opinion. I did not say it was an exclusively christian concept, and I know perfectly well that every civilization to date has been theistic. I thought the point was that we were meant to be emerging from that particular dark age.

For the record I have no desire to discuss this with you any further either. If you can't enter into a rational discussion about the theistic aspects of punishment without putting your opponent on ignore then this is deeply worrying for what purports to be a rational forum.

And your final sentence makes it clear why personal attacks on me are dealt with so bloody slowly here, i.e. at least one moderator thinks they're justified against me when I say things he disagrees with. Double standards, I think it's called. Thanks for the clarification. You weren't once a moderator on RD.net by any chance were you?

[DaveD]

What has punishment got to do with the OP anyway. The article is about remanding children in custody before sentencing, and some before there was even a trial. Whether they should be imprisoned if found guilty is a separate argument.

[mistermack]

What has punishment got to do with the OP anyway. The article is about remanding children in custody before sentencing, and some before there was even a trial. Whether they should be imprisoned if found guilty is a separate argument.

The offences that occurred as part of the riots bear no comparison to similar offences in the preceding year. That's why so many more were remanded in custody. Quite right too.
And children on remand are not treated like ordinary criminals in ordinary prisons.

[Robert_S]

I prefer a measured retribution and restorative mix with perhaps assistance available if the acceptance of assistance has no bearing on sentencing.

"Rehabilitation" has caused far more cruelty and degradation to minors the US juvenile system than retributive or restorative models.

I'd rather be treated as a conscious agent. Some people want to move beyond freedom and dignity, but I prefer to do the time if I get caught doing the crime and to do whatever is in my power to mend what I have broken. Even if I were to be publicly humiliated by say, having to stand out on a streetcorner holding a sign advertising my crimes, then at least after that I could know I had served my sentence and in some way paid back a debt.

I will make the caveat that any prison sentence exceeding 5 years for a non-violent offense or for property damage of less than 5 thousand is too cruel and far out of line with