Schools Helping Kids Get Secret Abortions?

[Santa_Claus]

Do you really believe that at age 16 the parents still have the right to decide upon medical procedures of such profound importance. What if the parents oppose abortion and had the right to force the young lady to have a baby against her wishes? Does that respect her right to sovereignity over her body and life? When it comes to sex and abortion - once the body is old enough to conceive, the "child" (which I wouldn't actually call a 16 year old) needs to have rights into decisions made about her body. Of course, guidance and support are required in the matter, but if she doesn't feel like she can trust her parents, than a counsellor is the next best thing.

Is it statutory rape if both parties are underage? If she was 16 at the time, it wouldn't have been stat rape her, so I don't actually think it is relevant to this case (though in general perhaps it can be).

Actually, yes. The girl, of course, can deny this, but that kind of case is when emancipation of the minor is called for, usually followed at once by booting her out of the parental home.

Seriously, either she's a minor, and she lives with it, or she wants to be a full adult, and then she stops expecting to be provided for.
Being provided for and under the legal protection of a legal guardian, but cherry picking things that you don't want them to have a know, or say in, is what the expression "have your cake and eat it too" was coined for.

If the "Child" is under the full control / authority of the Parents, then no reason why the Parents could not be charged with Statutory Rape - as clearly they are responsible, even if only for failing to excercise sufficient duty of care.

[Svartalf]

I'll be back to you on that when I have a daughter and I've banged her... neither very likely to ever happen

[Coito ergo sum]

Frankly I think it's those parents who are the ones who failed their child and are looking for someone else to blame, in this case the counselor. They are in denial if don't think their child could be having sex after a certain age, and knowing this they would have ensured their child has been educated sufficiently about sex and all the ramifications, and would have enough trust in them to know they are capable of making an intelligent and informed decision about their own body.

I had a open dialogue with my parents about sex, and they counseled me in great detail about practicing safe and responsible sex, birth control, and my alternatives if my birth control failed and I got pregnant. I made the decision, along with my boyfriend to have an abortion at 17...having already had the conversation with my parents, I felt confident about it being an intelligent and informed decision. To this day I have never regretted it.

It's not necessarily or even something that can be reasonably concluded that if a kid gets pregnant that's a "failure" of the parents.

Even people who are educated about sex and all the ramifications get pregnant.

And, because they are upset that some dopey counselor at school is acting behind their back with respect to things that effect their child does not mean they feel their kid is not capable of making an intelligent and informed decision. What a dereliction of parental responsibility it would be if parents did NOT care to know of such an important event in their teenager's life.

[Coito ergo sum]

She is 16 almost an adult what she does with her body is her business.....i must admit this is strange behaviour for a counsellor i remember one counsellor at my old school going behind the girls back and telling her parents that she is pregnant.

Oh and CES i know you like the moral outrage angle just like that paper.

I've not expressed any moral outrage. I expressed understanding that a parent would get pissed that some school counselor is able to or required to do an "end around" parental responsibility and just say "fuck you parents - you may be the legal guardian of this person, but we will be the ones working with your daughter to do what is best for her. Your input is not required."

If that protection disappeared, you can pretty well guarantee the young person won't tell the counsellor a thing – particularly the thing you need them to talk about."

That applies to anyone who sees a counsellor unless they are talking about hurting themselves or others. So that girl is just exercising her rights that apply to anyone. I know that i've told counsellors things that i would not tell my parent ever because of the repercussions etc so i can sympathise with that poor girl.

It's certainly a valid interest. By that same token, though, a parent should not be told a drug problem the child has, if the child discloses it to a counselor. As a parent, I would want to know. Plus, school counselors have no unique skillset here, and are generally rather useless, IMHO.

[nellikin]

I thought Mai meant that the parents had failed - not because the "child" fell pregnant - but because she didn't feel comfortable enough to talk to her parents about it. Pregnancies can happen, even despite contraception, at times

[stripes4]

I thought Mai meant that the parents had failed - not because the "child" fell pregnant - but because she didn't feel comfortable enough to talk to her parents about it. Pregnancies can happen, even despite contraception, at times

Very true. All it takes is a slipped off johnny bag, or a pill not absorbed properly due to a tummy upset, and life springs forth in all it's determined glory!!! Better sticking to wanks and blow jobs until you're really ready hey, kids??

[Svartalf]

By the time I was 16, I'd had enough wanks for 3 normal human lifetimes... if teenagers are anywhere like that, not a chance they'll pass up the real thing, because of stupid potential for consequences.

[stripes4]

I did. Then got accidentally pregnant in my twenties instead!!

[Coito ergo sum]

I thought Mai meant that the parents had failed - not because the "child" fell pregnant - but because she didn't feel comfortable enough to talk to her parents about it. Pregnancies can happen, even despite contraception, at times

There are many reasons a child would not "feel comfortable" talking about things with a parent. That doesn't mean the parents failed, or that they haven't made the effort to make sure the child knows there is an open door. When many things happen, a child would just prefer not to have the parents find out.

Anytime a parent might not be happy about something doesn't mean that a child ought to be able to avoid their parents finding out. I mean - most children ant to avoid their parents to finding out they're experimenting with drugs - is that a "failure of the parents" that they didn't make the child "Feel comfortable" about bringing such things to the parents' attention?

[nellikin]

No, I don't think parents have a right to know about sexual encounters of their children as long as they are consensual and not "rape" (and I won't discuss exactly what that is just here) and even then, there are limits. TBH - looking at some of the parents who live round here, I could perfectly understand it if their children didn't want to discuss such matters with them. Once you've sat through canteen duty with a bunch of uneducated bigotted right-wing nutters (who don't know how contraception works and have the families to prove it), you may feel differently about a parents "rights" to any access to their child whatsoever..

[redunderthebed]

That applies to anyone who sees a counsellor unless they are talking about hurting themselves or others. So that girl is just exercising her rights that apply to anyone. I know that i've told counsellors things that i would not tell my parent ever because of the repercussions etc so i can sympathise with that poor girl.

It's certainly a valid interest. By that same token, though, a parent should not be told a drug problem the child has, if the child discloses it to a counselor. As a parent, I would want to know. Plus, school counselors have no unique skillset here, and are generally rather useless, IMHO.[/quote]

Mate unless you are blind you can *tell* that your child has a drug problem.It was my mum encouraging me to go get help for my addiction. Sure for awhile you can hide use but that usually only happens for awhile. I remember my mum telling me before i gave up pot that i was not the same person and you are not addiction controls you changes you and any caring and attentive parent will notice this long before the person in question will admit that they have a problem.

I whole heartedly agree that school counsellors are fairly useless and rarer too since the scourge of chaplains that offer their services for free unlike counsellors which are on the school pay roll and a employee of the state education system.

[Coito ergo sum]

I was misquoted.

[Cunt]

If you had a daughter and she got pregnant, and the school personnel saw fit to disregard your parental rights (and responsibilities) you might be livid as well.

Father of two 16-year-old women checking in. (well, one turned 16 last week, one turns 16 tomorrow)

I would be disappointed that they couldn't approach me about it. I would be concerned for their after-care. I would be proud of them for making what is still a difficult decision.

Do you have daughters, Coito? How would you feel? (if you did, I mean)

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This would make sense if parental permission were also needed in order to get pregnant in the first place.

I'm not certain how that relates. Up to a certain age, the sex involved might be statutory rape. The article discusses how school officials hushed it up out of fear the parents might want statutory rape prosecuted. I raised an eyebrow at that, because it sounds like being an accessory after the fact.

Is a victim an accessory after the fact when they decline to pursue prosecution in a sexual assault case?

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Why would parents have input into medical procedures that are unimportant, but not the important ones?

At 16, they don't. It is between the 16-year-old, their doctor, and whoever else they decide to include.

I haven't suggested the parents should be permitted to force anyone to have a baby. I'm talking about the conduct of some idiot school counselor to affirmatively cover up the action from the parents.

No, you are talking about the counselor keeping his or her mouth shut (as required) and a doctor making the decision not to include the parents.
The doctor decided to support the young lady - I think it's relevant.

No 16 year old wants their parents to know they got knocked up. That doesn't mean the parents don't have a right to know. And, a school counselor is generally an incompetent moron. They just ask the kid if she feels comfortable talking to mom and dad, and if she says not, then poof - go ahead and let's keep it on the down-low.

Yup. Especially if the doc agrees.

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A few years ago I helped a friend get a secret abortion - no questions asked. It's what she said she wanted and I gave her lodgings and support as she did not want anyone to know.

WOO HOO!!! Congrats to you and that other nice lady who did it. I did it, too. The young lady did not want to include her parents, and I presume the doctor agreed with her assessment.

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Any decision which might lead to forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term should be avoided. Abortion is one of the most important human rights advances in a very long time. I would protect it as vigorously as I would protect freedom of speech. If the host doesn't want to carry the parasite, get it out. It really is simple. As to telling the parents, how could it possibly improve anything?

[Cunt]

I was misquoted.

oops - shit, did I do it, too?

[Ronja]

Schools are helping teenage girls keep abortions secret from their parents. Imogen Neale reports.

A MOTHER is angry her 16-year-old daughter had a secret abortion arranged by a school counsellor.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-time ... -abortions

I can certainly understand if there are issues of incest or abuse by the parents. But, absent that, there is hardly any kid who is not going to think that her parents would "react badly" or that she'd "get in trouble." The idea that parents ought not be told before a medical procedure is done is, to me, at first blush just plain ridiculous. Parents need to give permission for kids to get tattoos, for crying out loud. Parents need to give permission for kids to have any other non-emergency surgery.

Coito, did you read the whole article that you linked to?

Christchurch lawyer Kathryn Dalziel, who wrote Privacy In Schools: A guide to the Privacy Act for principals, teachers and boards of trustees, said students who saw counsellors were promised confidentiality, and the service was bound by the Health Privacy Code.

"When it comes to contraception and abortion, they [counsellors] would need the consent of the person before they could share information with a parent or the school," she said.

"If that protection disappeared, you can pretty well guarantee the young person won't tell the counsellor a thing – particularly the thing you need them to talk about."

And a counsellor who broke the rules and told a parent without the child's consent could be struck off.

That seems pretty straight forward to me: they have to follow NZ law in NZ. If many enough people want the law changed there, they no doubt can do that through the political process. I hope they won't, though, because I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment "If that protection disappeared, you can pretty well guarantee the young person won't tell the counsellor a thing – particularly the thing you need them to talk about."