A secular debate about abortion

Holy Crap!
Post Reply
User avatar
TheGreatGatsby
slightly successful mob boss
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:20 pm
About me: Manufacturer of nonevents
Contact:

A secular debate about abortion

Post by TheGreatGatsby » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:18 am

If we reject all religious arguments against abortion, the only criterion we are left with is the personhood or consciousness of the fetus when determining whether or not abortion is justified. Most of us would probably agree that in the first few days a fetus is so tiny and insignificant that an abortion can be justified, but what about a three-month old fetus? Or a six-month old? How can we draw a universal line between personhood and non-personhood? It is practically unfeasible to make these decisions on a case-by-case basis, so a universal principle must apply.

Pro-choice campaigners generally support seeing birth as the boundary past which extermination is morally undesirable, but birth changes absolutely nothing in a child, it simply transports it out of the womb. If we can somehow justify an extermination of a nine-month old fetus, why does this act become a punishable murder as soon as the child is born?

If we support the view that abortions can only be performed up to a certain point, doesn't this mean that due to the uniqueness of each fetus, we can never establish with any accuracy a universal moment at which a fetus becomes a child? Does it follow that the only way to prevent 'immoral' abortions is to outlaw it altogether?
Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe.

User avatar
FBM
Ratz' first Gritizen.
Posts: 45327
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 pm
About me: Skeptic. "Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach"
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by FBM » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:45 am

Mother knows best, IMO. And if she doesn't, it's on her head. I don't see any basis for an absolute, objective morality that applies to all people at all times in every situation. Let people do what they think is best at the time. If they regret it later, then that'll teach them a lesson.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

User avatar
Deep Sea Isopod
Bathynomus giganteus
Posts: 7806
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: Gods blind spot.
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:05 pm

OK, I'm just gonna pass on a few thoughts.
TheGreatGatsby wrote:If we reject all religious arguments against abortion, the only criterion we are left with is the personhood or consciousness of the fetus when determining whether or not abortion is justified.
Is the fetus conscious? How many of us remember that far back? We have no memory of it, so are we conscious?
Most of us would probably agree that in the first few days a fetus is so tiny and insignificant that an abortion can be justified, but what about a three-month old fetus? Or a six-month old? How can we draw a universal line between personhood and non-personhood?
What defines "personhood"?
The central nervous system hasn't developed before a couple of weeks, so there's no pain.
Pro-choice campaigners generally support seeing birth as the boundary past which extermination is morally undesirable, but birth changes absolutely nothing in a child, it simply transports it out of the womb. If we can somehow justify an extermination of a nine-month old fetus, why does this act become a punishable murder as soon as the child is born?
After birth it is legally a person.
After nine months, the human fetus's brain starts to get too big to pass through the birth channel, so humans have evolved to give birth before the fetus is fully developed.
If we support the view that abortions can only be performed up to a certain point, doesn't this mean that due to the uniqueness of each fetus, we can never establish with any accuracy a universal moment at which a fetus becomes a child? Does it follow that the only way to prevent 'immoral' abortions is to outlaw it altogether?
At which point does the egg become a chicken?
One day you can have it it a sandwich with bacon, the next day you have it with roast potatoes and peas.
I run with scissors. It makes me feel dangerous Image

Image

User avatar
Atheist-Lite
Formerly known as Crumple
Posts: 8745
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:35 pm
About me: You need a jetpack? Here, take mine. I don't need a jetpack this far away.
Location: In the Galactic Hub, Yes That One !!!
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Atheist-Lite » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:13 pm

This debate should belong to the women and they should deal with it and do any operations, deal with the guilt etc. Mens brains are different. We don't have the cognitve resources to deal with the issue in question.
nxnxm,cm,m,fvmf,vndfnm,nm,f,dvm,v v vmfm,vvm,d,dd vv sm,mvd,fmf,fn ,v fvfm,

User avatar
charlou
arseist
Posts: 32524
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:36 am

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by charlou » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:14 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:At which point does the egg become a chicken?
One day you can have it it a sandwich with bacon, the next day you have it with roast potatoes and peas.
Both are :food:
no fences

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:19 pm

Crumple wrote:This debate should belong to the women and they should deal with it and do any operations, deal with the guilt etc. Mens brains are different. We don't have the cognitve resources to deal with the issue in question.
On a purely mechanistic level that may be valid. However, consider what happens when a couple try very hard to have a child and finally conceive and the mother gets cold feet and want to abort. Does the father have absolutely no say as in your suggestion?
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Atheist-Lite
Formerly known as Crumple
Posts: 8745
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:35 pm
About me: You need a jetpack? Here, take mine. I don't need a jetpack this far away.
Location: In the Galactic Hub, Yes That One !!!
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Atheist-Lite » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:24 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Crumple wrote:This debate should belong to the women and they should deal with it and do any operations, deal with the guilt etc. Mens brains are different. We don't have the cognitve resources to deal with the issue in question.
On a purely mechanistic level that may be valid. However, consider what happens when a couple try very hard to have a child and finally conceive and the mother gets cold feet and want to abort. Does the father have absolutely no say as in your suggestion?
That's right. Her body her call.
nxnxm,cm,m,fvmf,vndfnm,nm,f,dvm,v v vmfm,vvm,d,dd vv sm,mvd,fmf,fn ,v fvfm,

Trolldor
Gargling with Nails
Posts: 15878
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:57 am
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Trolldor » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:26 pm

A fetus can be considered legally a person under certain conditions under certain laws, different countries place different values on the fetus. But the fetus is human. When you perform an abortion you are killing a human life. Do whatever you want, it's your decision. In many cases an abortion is preferable to the life the child will lead if it is birthed, whether that be because of genetic diseases, or the household it would otherwise grow up in. But it's still a human life.
Or, is someone with a serious mental handicap less human than an ordinary, healthy human being because they don't have the same mental capacity? Is a child less human than an adult? These are questions that have to be answered if you're measuring a human life based on sapience, or even consciousness, as there are many with serious mental handicaps who won't even take notice of certain outside stimuli.

There is no soul. There is no magic point where it starts being a human. It is always human. But it is still the mother's choice, and if she doesn't want or can't have the child then it is only her voice that holds any weight in the matter.
On a purely mechanistic level that may be valid. However, consider what happens when a couple try very hard to have a child and finally conceive and the mother gets cold feet and want to abort. Does the father have absolutely no say as in your suggestion?
The father has none because he risks nothing physically. He doesn't carry the child to term or go in to labour, doesn't squeeze one out from between his thighs or deliver one from surgery. The father can't demand a woman give birth and then walk away.

That said, if a father doesn't want the child then he shouldn't be forced to accept responsibility for it - provided he makes very clear his disapproval.
A parent who doesn't want their child isn't likely to be a healthy factor in their life.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:29 pm

Crumple wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Crumple wrote:This debate should belong to the women and they should deal with it and do any operations, deal with the guilt etc. Mens brains are different. We don't have the cognitve resources to deal with the issue in question.
On a purely mechanistic level that may be valid. However, consider what happens when a couple try very hard to have a child and finally conceive and the mother gets cold feet and want to abort. Does the father have absolutely no say as in your suggestion?
That's right. Her body her call.
Two people made it, one person can flush it. Okay then.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

PsychoSerenity
"I" Self-Perceive Recursively
Posts: 7824
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 am
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:36 pm

TheGreatGatsby wrote:If we reject all religious arguments against abortion, and yet still use a lot of their misconceptions and logically flawed arguments, does it follow that the only way to prevent 'immoral' abortions is to outlaw it altogether?
:fix:

And the answer is "no".

Trolldor wrote:
On a purely mechanistic level that may be valid. However, consider what happens when a couple try very hard to have a child and finally conceive and the mother gets cold feet and want to abort. Does the father have absolutely no say as in your suggestion?
The father has none because he risks nothing physically. He doesn't carry the child to term or go in to labour, doesn't squeeze one out from between his thighs or deliver one from surgery. The father can't demand a woman give birth and then walk away.

That said, if a father doesn't want the child then he shouldn't be forced to accept responsibility for it - provided he makes very clear his disapproval.
A parent who doesn't want their child isn't likely to be a healthy factor in their life.
+1 to this
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:54 pm

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/w ... 5983928223

Oz couple aborts twin boys because they are not female.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

PsychoSerenity
"I" Self-Perceive Recursively
Posts: 7824
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 am
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/w ... 5983928223

Oz couple aborts twin boys because they are not female.
Now that is interesting. :? :think:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

User avatar
Tero
Just saying
Posts: 47192
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:50 pm
About me: 15-32-25
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Tero » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:21 pm

I'm not into complex legal angles that require judges and lawyers. So it is a simple case of there is a fetus inside this woman, it is her fetus. The guy lost rights to his sperm when he let go of them. Now the complicated part is when the kid is born, then we do recognize two parents. But even that could be decided on the spot. If the father provides no support at birth, then he has lost all claims to it.

SIMPLE!

Next case.
https://esapolitics.blogspot.com
http://esabirdsne.blogspot.com/
Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56484
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Pappa » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:23 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Crumple wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Crumple wrote:This debate should belong to the women and they should deal with it and do any operations, deal with the guilt etc. Mens brains are different. We don't have the cognitve resources to deal with the issue in question.
On a purely mechanistic level that may be valid. However, consider what happens when a couple try very hard to have a child and finally conceive and the mother gets cold feet and want to abort. Does the father have absolutely no say as in your suggestion?
That's right. Her body her call.
Two people made it, one person can flush it. Okay then.
Cunt once started an interesting thread about whether men should be allowed to abdicate responsibility for babies that are born without their consent.

Also, regarding the point about when a foetus or baby has the right to not be aborted due to personhood... at various points some human groups have decided that infanticide is a valid form of birth control. Though it's possible they might have regarded infant murder as OK, as opposed to not regarding infants as persons.

User avatar
Santa_Claus
Your Imaginary Friend
Posts: 1985
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:06 pm
About me: Ho! Ho! Ho!
Contact:

Re: A secular debate about abortion

Post by Santa_Claus » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:16 pm

I am anti-abortion, but firmly pro-choice.

I would set the limit around 3 or 4 months - not because that is a viable age for the foetus but to the contrary, but still gives the woman plenty enough time to decide whether to abort or not. I would guess that would still need to have an option of late term abortions for genuine medical reasons (mother or baby), but total on demand has a cut off point of 3 or 4 months.

For woman who dither could be a problem, but I don't see why they couldn't make the decision in that timescale - even if not wanting to.
I am Leader of all The Atheists in the world - FACT.

Come look inside Santa's Hole :ninja:

You want to hear the truth about Santa Claus???.....you couldn't handle the truth about Santa Claus!!!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests