Sorry Atheists, But Gods Are Perfectly Possible!!

[Trolldor]

Oh for fuck's sake. I expect you'll be telling us that the world is all a projection of a single conscious entity and we are nothing but the delusions of a mad man.

Secondly...
LOL.

Laws can't be broken... That's the whole fucking point of being 'supernatural'. You can break the unbreakable. That what it takes to be Supernatural, you have to transcend nature.

[Hermit]

Laws can't be broken... That's the whole fucking point of being 'supernatural'. You can break the unbreakable. That what it takes to be Supernatural, you have to transcend nature.

If laws - as we have formulated them - are broken, they weren't quite as representative of how we thought nature operates, were they?

[Coito ergo sum]

if there existed an entity that could break the actual laws of nature (whatever those laws may be), then that entity would be supernatural.

Now, that is begging the question. Mistermack, come here and look at this.

It's just an if/then proposition, like saying, "If the sky is blue, then it's not red, orange, yellow, green, indigo or violet."

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Laws can't be broken... That's the whole fucking point of being 'supernatural'. You can break the unbreakable. That what it takes to be Supernatural, you have to transcend nature.

If laws - as we have formulated them - are broken, they weren't quite as representative of how we thought nature operates, were they?

If they can be broken by natural processes, they aren't laws, just mistaken ideas. However, the very essence of "supernatural" is that it works outside natural laws. Still speculative, but we can't let that impede a good argument, can we?

[Trolldor]

If laws - as we have formulated them - are broken, they weren't quite as representative of how we thought nature operates, were they?

And once again, what we percieve, what we forumlate, completely irrelevant. We're talking about the laws of nature being broken by a supernatural entity, not our understanding of the universe being challenged by an unknown phenomena.

To make it very clear:
The laws of nature As they actually are. Not as we predict or evaluate or conclude or determine or forumlate.

We will never know a supernatural entity until we know for certain what the laws of nature are, but that doesn't change the requirements for being considered Supernatural.

[Coito ergo sum]

If the Christian God exists as described in the Bible, would that entity be supernatural? Yes, because as described it is not produced by nature or natural processes, and can alter the laws of nature at will (and not merely correct our misunderstanding of those laws).

Do you have free will? If so, I guess you are supernatural too.

I don't follow that.

One, I don't know if I really have free will. It FEELS like I have free will. That's all I can really say. I seem to choose to do things. But, whether I really am freely choosing is beyond my ken.

Two, let's assume I have free will. How would that necessitate me being supernatural? I'm part of the natural universe, produced by natural processes. Natural.

You would be an uncaused cause.

How does having free will mean you are uncaused cause? I do have a cause. I was caused by sexual reproduction, sperm/egg, all that. And, that doesn't change whether I have free will or not.

[Coito ergo sum]

Oh for fuck's sake. I expect you'll be telling us that the world is all a projection of a single conscious entity and we are nothing but the delusions of a mad man.

Secondly...
LOL.

Laws can't be broken... That's the whole fucking point of being 'supernatural'. You can break the unbreakable. That what it takes to be Supernatural, you have to transcend nature.

Bingo.

I have seen no evidence of anything supernatural. But, if there is something supernatural, Mad Hatter succinctly stated what it would be.

[Hermit]

If someone could break natural laws, that entity would be supernatural. Agreed. That is no less circular, though, than saying something like If a man was immortal he would live forever.

[JimC]

If someone could break natural laws, that entity would be supernatural. Agreed. That is no less circular, though, than saying something like If a man was immortal he would live forever.

The Gordian knot is cut by saying natural laws are never broken, simply by definition of what constitutes natural.

End of story.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If someone could break natural laws, that entity would be supernatural. Agreed. That is no less circular, though, than saying something like If a man was immortal he would live forever.

That's redundant, not circular.

[Trolldor]

It's also the only way of establishing a Supernatural entity.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It's also the only way of establishing a Supernatural entity.

I think we'd hit the "Flatland" problem with any supernatural entity.

[Trolldor]

It's also the only way of establishing a Supernatural entity.

I think we'd hit the "Flatland" problem with any supernatural entity.

Pretty much.

[JimC]

It's also the only way of establishing a Supernatural entity.

I think we'd hit the "Flatland" problem with any supernatural entity.

Pretty much.

Will someone break it to Lion IRC gently?

[Elessarina]

Clarke's third law

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

THIS