The Thread of Democrats

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Forty Two
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Forty Two » Mon May 13, 2019 2:49 pm

Nothing you presented, Joe, constitutes evidence of coordination or conspiracy by the Trump campaign with Russia to interfere with the election.

Another way to ask it is: what do you think Mueller found the Trump campaign did that constituted or might possibly constitute coordination with Russians to interfere with the 2016 election?

1. The Trump campaign didn't do anything with respect to the sign requests other than to provide signs - and there was no reason Mueller gave to think that the Trump campaign knew the requests were coming from foreign nationals at all, much less Russians.
2. Mueller does not say the Trump campaign was involved in any way with Pinedo, does he? If you think he does, describe where and how.
3. Regarding the Russians posing as grassroots activists - where does the Mueller report say that has anything at all to do with the Trump campaign?

Direct answers, please.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:35 pm
Joe wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 4:37 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:25 am
Fess up now, you know it is correct. You haven't cited any evidence of "coordination or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia." The one item you quoted, where people called the Trump campaign for signs and such - that's evidence AGAINST coordination, not for coordination. It shows that they had no evidence that the Trump campaign workers did anything more than pick up the phone and have someone on the other end ask for signs and help with rallies. That's not coordination with Russia to interfere wtih an election.

Now, if you have any evidence of ccordination/collusion/conspiracy with Russia to interference with the election? That's what I've been asking for. If the one thing you have is that mention about the signs and rallies, then that's fine. That's all you have.
Gee kid, when you say
The report found zero evidence of coordination or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia (or any American and Russia).
you really ought to pay attention when I give you examples where it did, and called you out for bad behavior.
My bad behavior was only a mimic of yours -- I was quite clear to tell you something to the effect of "see how douchey it sounds when you address people like that?" You pretend as if I wasn't responding to you. But regardless.

Your ONE allegation that you think is "evidence of coordination or conspiracy" is your own misstatement of what Mueller actually found. You referred only to the "coordinate logistics" blurb. However, that quote does NOT say that the Trump campaign coordinated with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election. That quote says that Russians contacted the Trump campaign asking for signs and to coordinate logistics of a rally, and that the Trump campaign workers had no knowledge that they were "foreign nationals" (much less, Russians). It is dishonest to call that "the Trump campaign coordinating with Russians..." - you can't coordinate or conspire with a Russian who you don't know is a Russian, and there isn't anything wrong with picking up the phone and agreeing to provide signs and other help with rallies, no matter what the nationality of the caller.

The fact that that's your best - and only - statement that you have provided as evidence of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia to interfere with the 2016 election proves my point - not yours.

Let's clear up one point - do you have anything else besides that blurb about Russians supposedly calling a Trump campaign office and asking for signs and to help with rallies? Anything at all?
Nice try at moving the goalposts, kid, but I've provided three examples from the Mueller report that refute your claim. Since you're trying to scale it back to just the Trump campaign, let me show what you claimed again .
The report found zero evidence of coordination or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia (or any American and Russia).
You didn't limit to the Trump campaign, but included "any American," as do my examples. You didn't qualify the coordination to include only knowing coordination either.

So I gave you three examples that meet the conditions of your claim, and once again, three is not equal to zero, and your claim is not true. Coordination with U.S. persons counts, even though you are trying to evade that.

Speaking of evasion, I note that you failed to meet my challenge to cite some source that backs your claim that I've misstated what Mueller found, or that unwittingly coordinating with the IRA was somehow not coordination, or that coordinating logistics (by definition coordination) is somehow not coordination. You're welcome to your opinion, but I dismiss it as your usual empty posturing, so why do I need more than one example?

So where's your supporting citations Kid? Cat got your tongue?
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Mon May 13, 2019 11:10 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:49 pm
Nothing you presented, Joe, constitutes evidence of coordination or conspiracy by the Trump campaign with Russia to interfere with the election.

Another way to ask it is: what do you think Mueller found the Trump campaign did that constituted or might possibly constitute coordination with Russians to interfere with the 2016 election?

1. The Trump campaign didn't do anything with respect to the sign requests other than to provide signs - and there was no reason Mueller gave to think that the Trump campaign knew the requests were coming from foreign nationals at all, much less Russians.
2. Mueller does not say the Trump campaign was involved in any way with Pinedo, does he? If you think he does, describe where and how.
3. Regarding the Russians posing as grassroots activists - where does the Mueller report say that has anything at all to do with the Trump campaign?

Direct answers, please.
See my other reply, answer my question.

And quit playing stupid, all of this has been answered before, which isn't my problem. :bored:
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Mon May 13, 2019 11:32 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:42 pm
Note - Richard Pinedo did not have anything to do with the Trump campaign, or Trump. So how in the world does that amount to evidence that Trump or the Trump campaign coordinated or conspired with Russia to interfere with the 2016 election?

Pinedo operated the website Auction Essistance, which brokered bank account numbers to allow people banned from eBay and PayPal (and similar websites) to return to those websites under a different identity. Pinedo transferred, possessed and used the identities of other people in connection with unlawful activity, according to a statement of the offense. I’m not sure how this could have less to do with Russian collusion, coordination or conspiracy with the Trump campaign to interfere with the election.
You claimed
The report found zero evidence of coordination or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia (or any American and Russia).
Pinedo is an American who broke the law supporting the Russians in interfering with the election, and his case is evidence for the error of your claim.

Now how about you answer my question in the other post. Give it an honest shot, and see if you can find someone who references Mueller saying
Starting in June 2016, the IRA contacted different U.S. persons affiliated with the Trump Campaign in an effort to coordinate pro-Trump IRA-organized rallies inside the United States. In all cases, the IRA contacted the Campaign while claiming to be U.S. political activists working on behalf of a conservative grassroots organization. The IRA's contacts included requests for signs and other materials to use at rallies, as well as requests to promote the rallies and help coordinate Iogistics. While certain campaign volunteers agreed to provide the requested support (for example, agreeing to set aside a number of signs), the investigation has not identified evidence that any Trump Campaign official understood the requests were coming from foreign nationals.
who concludes that this is not evidence of unwitting coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

I'll be surprised if you can, but if you do, I'll be proud of you kid. :{D
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"as far as strong, i am hard as a rock and tough as a nail. no one will bring me down. no one. i am the debonator. the tnt. and jesus has my back door pal!" - D. C. Bockemehl
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:46 pm
And you quoted this "The IRA organized and promoted political rallies inside the United States while posing as U.S . grassroots activists. First, the IRA used one of its preexisting social media personas (Facebook groups and Twitter accounts, for example) to announce and promote the event. The IRA then sent a large number of direct messages to followers of its social media account asking them to attend the event. From those who responded with interest in attending , the IRA then sought a U.S. person to serve as the event's coordinator. In most cases, the IRA account operator would tell the U.S . person that they personally could not attend the event due to some preexisting conflict or because they were somewhere else in the United States. 82 The IRA then further promoted the event by contacting U.S. media about the event and directing them to speak with the coordinator. "

So?

Where is the "coordination with the Trump campaign?"

Nobody says the IRA or Russians didn't attempt to do things to influence or muck up the election. Their actions, however, don't constitute coordination with the Trump campaign, or any other campaign, unless that campaign coordinated with them. The IRA organizing political rallies in the US while posing as grassroots activists is NOT coordinating or conspiring with the Trump campaign, and it's not evidence of that. To say it is would be to say that if a Mexican group came to the US to organize rallies inside the US while posing as US grassroots activists would be coordination or conspiracy with a campaign to interfere with an election.
Ah, but once again, you claimed
The report found zero evidence of coordination or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia (or any American and Russia).
and this is clear evidence that claim is erroneous because it shows Americans coordinating with Russians. Whether they are members of the Trump campaign is of interest naturally, but not necessary to refute what you say.

BTW, if a Mexican group came to the US in the same manner as the Russians did, Americans would be coordinating with them as well. The paragraph I quoted describes coordination.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue May 14, 2019 12:46 am

Surely the Trump Tower meeting was 'coordination' - you know, to work together towards a common goal or effect a mutually desirable outcome? Flynn was coordinating with the Russians during the transition and after - he even pleaded guilty to it.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Tue May 14, 2019 12:59 am

Yeahbut, if our friend won't admit something Mueller called coordination is coordination, he may have problems opening his mind to the possibility. :tut:
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue May 14, 2019 2:08 am

To me, Manafort (via Gates) periodically sharing private campaign polling data with Kilimnik strongly indicates that the Trump campaign was working with Russian intelligence. It appears that some type of collusion, conspiracy, or coordination was occurring.

We know that Manafort refused to fully cooperate with the investigation, so it's not a big surprise that Mueller's investigators were unable to obtain evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this transfer of data was part of a program of coordination. Despite Trump's attempt to downplay Manafort's importance, it's a fact that this occurred while he was the campaign chairman, and Kilimnik's denial that he ever got any 'in-depth polling data' rings hollow.

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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Tue May 14, 2019 5:14 am

Yeah, especially since he gave Kilimnik data about Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Minnesota. Those states were key in Trump's election. I really wonder what the counterintelligence investigation has found.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 14, 2019 10:05 am

Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm

Nice try at moving the goalposts,
I moved no goalpost. You haven't presented evidence mentioned in the Mueller report of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russians to interfere with the the 2016 election, which is what I've been asking for the whole time.
Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm
kid, but I've provided three examples from the Mueller report that refute your claim. Since you're trying to scale it back to just the Trump campaign, let me show what you claimed again .
The report found zero evidence of coordination or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia (or any American and Russia).
You didn't limit to the Trump campaign, but included "any American," as do my examples. You didn't qualify the coordination to include only knowing coordination either.
Sure, but I included the Trump campaign, and the "or any American" was an add on - because of the Mueller reports own reference to "no US person" which I so haphazardly referred to as "American" (as you pointed out -- a "US Person" and "American" obviously have a significant difference in meaning...)

I don't honestly care if some other American coordinated with Russians regarding the campaign. Frankly, Russians are allowed to hold rallies and carry signs in the United States, and there is nothing wrong with "US persons" rallying with them or "coordinating" with them. The same is true of Mexicans, for example, or Japanese or Chinese or Kenyans or Egyptians or Syrians or Israelis - they are allowed to rally and carry signs. Americans can support them and rally with them, even if they are in favor of candidates.

The "coordination" - and you know this so stop pretending this discussion is about something else - that we're talking about and that we've always been talking about is between the Trump campaign and Russia to interfere with the election.
Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm


So I gave you three examples that meet the conditions of your claim,
Only I provided no "conditions." And your examples were not examples of ANYONE coordinating with Russia to interfere with the election. The guy who was convicted of selling bank information wasn't convicted of anything relating to Russia. You've expanded your suggestion of what constitutes evidence of coordination with Russia to "evidence that somebody did something wrong." Nobody denies that people did wrong things. This discussion is about coordination or conspiracy with Russia to interfere with the election. The core allegation that has been the focus of national attention for the last 2-3 years.
Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm



and once again, three is not equal to zero,
You can't seriously think that any of the examples you provided are examples of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia to interfere with the election.
Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm

and your claim is not true. Coordination with U.S. persons counts, even though you are trying to evade that.
Oh fuck off - coordination with US persons to do what? Interfere with the election? You haven't provided one example of that. And, you're diverting - the issue isn't what some US person unrelated to the Trump campaign did. I've been quite clear what we're talking about. You know you have zero. You're just trying to grasp at straws. https://theintercept.com/2019/04/18/rob ... ated-them/
THE TWO-PRONGED CONSPIRACY THEORY that has dominated U.S. political discourse for almost three years – that (1) Trump, his family and his campaign conspired or coordinated with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election, and (2) Trump is beholden to Russian President Vladimir Putin — was not merely rejected today by the final report of Special Counsel Robert Mueller. It was obliterated: in an undeniable and definitive manner.

The key fact is this: Mueller – contrary to weeks of false media claims – did not merely issue a narrow, cramped, legalistic finding that there was insufficient evidence to indict Trump associates for conspiring with Russia and then proving their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That would have been devastating enough to those who spent the last two years or more misleading people to believe that conspiracy convictions of Trump’s closest aides and family members were inevitable. But his mandate was much broader than that: to state what did or did not happen.

That’s precisely what he did: Mueller, in addition to concluding that evidence was insufficient to charge any American with crimes relating to Russian election interference, also stated emphatically in numerous instances that there was no evidence – not merely that there was insufficient evidence to obtain a criminal conviction – that key prongs of this three-year-old conspiracy theory actually happened.
https://theintercept.com/2019/04/18/rob ... ated-them/

And, see Matt Taibbi - another politically left commentator and a writer cited by folks here often:
It's official: Russiagate is this generation's WMD
The Iraq war faceplant damaged the reputation of the press. Russiagate just destroyed it
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagat ... -a-million

Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm
Speaking of evasion, I note that you failed to meet my challenge to cite some source that backs your claim that I've misstated what Mueller found,
The Mueller report doesn't provide any examples of the Trump campaign or any US person coordinating with Russia to interfere with the election. And, I have cited sources above - see, for example, the very detailed article by Glenn Greenwald (politically on the left), and more from Matt Taibbi -
There will be people protesting: the Mueller report doesn’t prove anything! What about the 37 indictments? The convictions? The Trump tower revelations? The lies! The meeting with Don, Jr.? The financial matters! There’s an ongoing grand jury investigation, and possible sealed indictments, and the House will still investigate, and…

Stop. Just stop. Any journalist who goes there is making it worse.

For years, every pundit and Democratic pol in Washington hyped every new Russia headline like the Watergate break-in. Now, even Nancy Pelosi has said impeachment is out, unless something “so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan” against Trump is uncovered it would be worth their political trouble to prosecute.

The biggest thing this affair has uncovered so far is Donald Trump paying off a porn star. That’s a hell of a long way from what this business was supposedly about at the beginning, and shame on any reporter who tries to pretend this isn’t so.

The story hyped from the start was espionage: a secret relationship between the Trump campaign and Russian spooks who’d helped him win the election.

The betrayal narrative was not reported as metaphor. It was not “Trump likes the Russians so much, he might as well be a spy for them.” It was literal spying, treason, and election-fixing – crimes so severe, former NSA employee John Schindler told reporters, Trump “will die in jail.”

In the early months of this scandal, the New York Times said Trump’s campaign had “repeated contacts” with Russian intelligence; the Wall Street Journal told us our spy agencies were withholding intelligence from the new President out of fear he was compromised; news leaked out our spy chiefs had even told other countries like Israel not to share their intel with us, because the Russians might have “leverages of pressure” on Trump.

CNN told us Trump officials had been in “constant contact” with “Russians known to U.S. intelligence,” and the former director of the CIA, who’d helped kick-start the investigation that led to Mueller’s probe, said the President was guilty of “high crimes and misdemeanors,” committing acts “nothing short of treasonous.”

Hillary Clinton insisted Russians “could not have known how to weaponize” political ads unless they’d been “guided” by Americans. Asked if she meant Trump, she said, “It’s pretty hard not to.” Harry Reid similarly said he had “no doubt” that the Trump campaign was “in on the deal” to help Russians with the leak.

None of this has been walked back. To be clear, if Trump were being blackmailed by Russian agencies like the FSB or the GRU, if he had any kind of relationship with Russian intelligence, that would soar over the “overwhelming and bipartisan” standard, and Nancy Pelosi would be damning torpedoes for impeachment right now.

There was never real gray area here. Either Trump is a compromised foreign agent, or he isn’t. If he isn’t, news outlets once again swallowed a massive disinformation campaign, only this error is many orders of magnitude more stupid than any in the recent past, WMD included. Honest reporters like ABC’s Terry Moran understand: Mueller coming back empty-handed on collusion means a “reckoning for the media.”

Of course, there won’t be such a reckoning. (There never is). But there should be. We broke every written and unwritten rule in pursuit of this story, starting with the prohibition on reporting things we can’t confirm.
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagat ... -a-million
Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:49 pm

or that unwittingly coordinating with the IRA was somehow not coordination, or that coordinating logistics (by definition coordination) is somehow not coordination. You're welcome to your opinion, but I dismiss it as your usual empty posturing, so why do I need more than one example?

So where's your supporting citations Kid? Cat got your tongue?
Nobody alleged that anyone "unwittingly" coordinated with Russia to interfere with the election. Nobody said that the Trump campaign coordinated logistics either. The Mueller report said Russians made "requests" for signs and to coordinate logistics. Nobody said anything about the Trump campaign actually coordinating logistics. And, reminder, anyone can call a campaign office - our Australian and British brethren here can do so tomorrow or in 2020 and request signs and to coordinate logistics of a rally - that's not coordination between the Trump campaign and foreign nationals to interfere with an election.

And, if you are presenting that as Exhibit A of your "Mueller reported evidence of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia," then you are making my case - because only a True Believer in The Resistance or a Trump-Deranged person could possibly consider that evidence of anything of the kind.

Cat got my tongue? Fuck off - I've refuted every dopey blurb you've tried to twist into "evidence" - you're effectively countering the assertion that the sky is blue by pointing to the blue sky and saying "see, it's grey!"
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 14, 2019 10:12 am

Joe wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:46 pm
And you quoted this "The IRA organized and promoted political rallies inside the United States while posing as U.S . grassroots activists. First, the IRA used one of its preexisting social media personas (Facebook groups and Twitter accounts, for example) to announce and promote the event. The IRA then sent a large number of direct messages to followers of its social media account asking them to attend the event. From those who responded with interest in attending , the IRA then sought a U.S. person to serve as the event's coordinator. In most cases, the IRA account operator would tell the U.S . person that they personally could not attend the event due to some preexisting conflict or because they were somewhere else in the United States. 82 The IRA then further promoted the event by contacting U.S. media about the event and directing them to speak with the coordinator. "

So?

Where is the "coordination with the Trump campaign?"

Nobody says the IRA or Russians didn't attempt to do things to influence or muck up the election. Their actions, however, don't constitute coordination with the Trump campaign, or any other campaign, unless that campaign coordinated with them. The IRA organizing political rallies in the US while posing as grassroots activists is NOT coordinating or conspiring with the Trump campaign, and it's not evidence of that. To say it is would be to say that if a Mexican group came to the US to organize rallies inside the US while posing as US grassroots activists would be coordination or conspiracy with a campaign to interfere with an election.
Ah, but once again, you claimed
The report found zero evidence of coordination or conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia (or any American and Russia).
and this is clear evidence that claim is erroneous because it shows Americans coordinating with Russians. Whether they are members of the Trump campaign is of interest naturally, but not necessary to refute what you say.

BTW, if a Mexican group came to the US in the same manner as the Russians did, Americans would be coordinating with them as well. The paragraph I quoted describes coordination.
It doesn't though - it LITERALLY does not describe "coordination." It describes Russians REQUESTING signs and REQUESTING "to coordinate logistics." It does NOT describe the Trump campaign coordinating with Russia. It, in fact, flat out says that the Trump campaign didn't even know they were foreign nationals, much less Russians. That's not "coordination" -- the coordination we're talking about is coordination to interfere with the election. Stop being a fuckwit and pretending this is about whether some American somewhere was asked by a Russian (unbeknownst to the American) for signs and to help with rallies.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue May 14, 2019 11:00 am

Ah, the campaign didn't know they were coordinating with foreign nationals, let alone Russians, therefore no coordination could have taken place. Obviously, political coordination with US nationals involves no coordination at all.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Joe » Tue May 14, 2019 2:47 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:00 am
Ah, the campaign didn't know they were coordinating with foreign nationals, let alone Russians, therefore no coordination could have taken place. Obviously, political coordination with US nationals involves no coordination at all.
I'm waiting with baited breath to see what our friend thinks the meaning of is is.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue May 14, 2019 4:42 pm

It depends what you mean by mean.
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Re: The Thread of Democrats

Post by Svartalf » Tue May 14, 2019 5:54 pm

you're so mean...
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

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