Even more problematic stuff

Locked
User avatar
Cunt
Lumpy Vagina Bloodfart
Posts: 18529
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:44 am

JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
You don't have any choice about that, as far as I can tell.

Even Mindromp, which has more of a core of free speech (as opposed to ratz's cheese, bacon and smegma) is probably subject to that kind of thing. It's a threat in more and more areas of the economy. Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson and that Rubin guy all left Patreon (their income source) in protest, but I don't know that any company is safe.

This is why I try (honest I do) to not interfere with the management of this place. There are a few approaches to making a good online forum and almost none of them prioritize free speech.
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
-various artists


Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate

The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.

Update: I've been offered one!
rainbow wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:23 pm
It is actually quite easy. A woman has at least one X chromosome.
Strong ideas don't require censorship to survive. Weak ideas cannot survive without it.

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 37953
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 am

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:07 pm
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Well, yeah. We don't have them in the US. That's a good thing. People can have the opinions they like.

You just said "let's round up all the Jews and gas them like the vermin they are," didn't you? Was something wrong with that? Do you get to say it, but someone who really believes it doesn't?

Taking the position that we should bring back Jim Crow laws, etc., or that a race is inferior is just an idea - yes, it's not action. And, again, you just said it.

The liberal justices of the US Supreme Court had this figured out more 50 years ago. Brandenburg v Kentucky -- and the Nazi Party v Skokie Illinois -- speech is speech, man. In Brandenburg, the SCOTUS ruled that free speech includes the "mere" advocacy of violence. The court recognized the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.

Imminent means "right now." Like - whipping up a crowd to go beat up a specific person. But, merely advocating that it would be a good idea to have a violent communist revolution, or a violent fascist uprising - or whatever, would not be illegal. It's protected speech.

Frankly, if someone has the opinions that they think it would be a good idea to gas people, I want them to say it. If they can say it, then the rest of us know who he is. Driving such people underground just makes them fester - they band together in secret - they convince each other that the government or the orthodoxy is silencing the truth. Example - if Nazis can march down the street, then everyone can laugh at and ridicule the Nazis. If the Nazis have to fight to march down the street, or if they are barred from marching down the street, that's proof to them that the Jews really are in control, and silencing them. I prefer a world where the Nazis are open, and laughed at, and where they aren't funny, law enforcement knows where to find most of them.
Protesting Nazis isn't silencing them - it's protesting.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am

Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 59295
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:58 am

I preferred my response about inanity.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Cunt
Lumpy Vagina Bloodfart
Posts: 18529
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:15 am

You need to consider that these 'policies', however you write them, will be used by your ideological opposition, in whatever way they deem suitable.

They have every right to, so those policies need to value fairness over feelings.
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
-various artists


Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate

The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.

Update: I've been offered one!
rainbow wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:23 pm
It is actually quite easy. A woman has at least one X chromosome.
Strong ideas don't require censorship to survive. Weak ideas cannot survive without it.

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 37953
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:11 pm

Svartalf wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:48 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:34 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:29 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:48 pm
If antifa comes to town, are they the good guys fighting the bad guys, or are they the bad guys fighting the good guys?
I guess that depends on one's ideology; on whether one thinks fascists are good guys or bad guys. :tea:
Indeed, or whether one thinks communists are bad guys or good guys ,or anarchists are bad guys or good guys, or antifa is bad or good, etc.
antifa isn't communist or anarchist. It's anti-fascist.
and while they do tend to be lefties, they often lean on the extreme edge of the spectrulm, as in, fanatics... before 1980 they would be classified as maoists.
All those who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't Antifa - they were just anti-fascist. It's a common ruse of the right to label those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities as extremists.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:43 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 am

Protesting Nazis isn't silencing them - it's protesting.
I agree. I never said it was.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
That's not clear at all, not in the real world.

The Lindsey Shepard case is instructive on that point.

Some significant factions of people thought that the Steve Pakin show where Jordan Peterson discussed why he believed bill C-16 was a bad idea that that he should not be compelled by law to use words he doesn't agree with was "hate speech" even though it was in a the midst of a theoretical discussion on the limits of free speech and the scope of bill C-16.

This is a private forum, so the owners and their designees could delete everything here - or delete every third word - or delete everything but "hate speech." So, it's not the same thing as either the law proscribing speech, or the use of force to silence speech. You certainly wouldn't be within your rights to use force to silence people.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 37953
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:00 pm

If I refer to you as Madam, is that hate speech?
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 14978
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I am the grammar snob about whom your mother warned you.
Location: The Of Color Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:07 pm

I guess it depends on if you mean it hatefully. If call you an umbrella, because I hate you, maybe that's hate speech.

Only, I don't draw lines at hate speech or non-hate speech. If it's hate speech to call me madam, it doesn't change your right to say what you want.

I am free to choose not to associate with you, to call you an asshole for calling me madam, etc.

Image
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 37953
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:23 pm

So it depends on the context?
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:28 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:44 pm
Ideas are not action.

You can have protection against the action of others, while those others still having the same right as you to express your ideas willingly.
So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
That's not clear at all, not in the real world.
I'll just leave you to prattle on without me. Someone will perhaps let me know when you're done.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:30 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:28 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 pm
Hermit wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:03 am
Cunt wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 pm

So, abolish all hate-speech laws? I mean, what is wrong with saying: "Let's round up all Jews and gas them like the vermin they are." Or "We need to bring back the Jim Crow laws without delay. They will stop racially inferior niggers from polluting our water founts, park benches and schools." They're ideas, right, not action.
Weren't you talking about gassing redheads?

Should you be allowed to say it? Or should we assume that, since your motives are pure, you don't really mean it?
This saves me some typing:
JimC wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:37 am
Clearly, if it is being said as a theoretical example within a discussion on the limits to free speech, either in mass media or on a forum, it is not hate speech. It is usually very clear as to when it is said with real intent. It becomes hate speech, and would be redacted from this forum (we've done it before, and if needed, we'll do it again)
That's not clear at all, not in the real world.
I'll just leave you to prattle on about your interpretation of the real world without me for a while.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
Cunt
Lumpy Vagina Bloodfart
Posts: 18529
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:10 am
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by Cunt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:52 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:11 pm
All those who came out onto the streets at Charlottesville weren't Antifa - they were just anti-fascist. It's a common ruse of the right to label those who are prepared to stand up and shout because they don't want to see bigots and hate-mongers prosper in their communities as extremists.
I consider it a pretty damning sign for anyone to wear a mask while using force.

Whether it is an army or police force hiding the identity of their officers, or some noodle-armed antifa teens masking up to threaten people - wearing that mask is bad fucking news, and speaks pretty poorly and pretty clearly for anyone wearing them.
Shit, Piss, Cock, Cunt, Motherfucker, Cocksucker and Tits.
-various artists


Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate

The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.

Update: I've been offered one!
rainbow wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:23 pm
It is actually quite easy. A woman has at least one X chromosome.
Strong ideas don't require censorship to survive. Weak ideas cannot survive without it.

User avatar
laklak
Posts: 20981
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:07 pm
About me: My preferred pronoun is "Massah"
Location: Tannhauser Gate
Contact:

Re: Even more problematic stuff

Post by laklak » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:28 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:00 pm
If I refer to you as Madam, is that hate speech?
I prefer "slut" or "bitch".
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests