Should Communism Be Declared A Criminal Ideology?

[Scot Dutchy]

There is no "permanent" in Switzerland, a few months notice period, that's all. The best one can hope for is "stable". OK, may be only habilitated university professors with a chair are permanently in place till retirement.

I am surprised. I know the Scandinavian countries have the same type of contracts and Belgium. Germany has something quite similar.
To sack somebody with a permanent contract is very difficult. He has to perform badly for three years. Had a bad career assessment. The employer has to apply to the kanton court (local business court) for a licence to sack him. The court can put demands on the employer to find another job for him inside or outside the business. This can take ten years if the employee does not to work with the agency brought in to treat the problem. These disputes are legends.
It is not for nothing that employers tries everything possible to keep people in temporary contracts. This has now been cut back to three years.
There is nothing capitalistic in our employment laws.

[Rum]

Permanent here means here you cant be sacked or retired for any reason unless its criminal.

I’d be surprised. Even in the workers’ paradise of the Netherlands companies go bust, people break the conditions of their contracts, companies merge and all the rest of it. A job for life in the ever changing ebb and flow of commerce and the workplace generally?

I was personally party to two cases of dismissal over the years concerning people who were shit at their jobs and despite support (over a year long in one case) didn’t hack it.

[Scot Dutchy]

Like what?

You'll know more about it than I do. I guess if it's really hard to get one then there may be few problems for the employer. How common are they? What percentage of Dutch workers enjoy this protection?

A vast majority. Temporary contracts can only be continued for three years.
At this moment there 60-70% of workers with a permanent contract and because of economic growth they are increasing faster than temporary contracts. Employers want to keep their workers.
It is not for nothing one of the happiest countries. We dont work long hours and are willing to work part time and have more time for our families and hobbies.

[DRSB]

Permanent here means here you cant be sacked or retired for any reason unless its criminal.

I’d be surprised. Even in the workers’ paradise of the Netherlands companies go bust, people break the conditions of their contracts, companies merge and all the rest of it. A job for life in the ever changing ebb and flow of commerce and the workplace generally?

I was personally party to two cases of dismissal over the years concerning people who were shit at their jobs and despite support (over a year long in one case) didn’t hack it.

Unquittable contracts? I cannot imagine. Not even marriage is unquittable. let alone a work contract, on both ends.

[Scot Dutchy]

Permanent here means here you cant be sacked or retired for any reason unless its criminal.

I’d be surprised. Even in the workers’ paradise of the Netherlands companies go bust, people break the conditions of their contracts, companies merge and all the rest of it. A job for life in the ever changing ebb and flow of commerce and the workplace generally?

I was personally party to two cases of dismissal over the years concerning people who were shit at their jobs and despite support (over a year long in one case) didn’t hack it.

Going bust does not mean you are out of a job. The company or its organisation it belonged to still has to support you and find you new work when you have a permanent contract. Companies merging are also compelled to devise a social plan for any excess workers. The court has to approve the plan as well which usually gives a very generous compensation.
Being a shit employee is difficult. The court tends to take the side of the employee.

[Sean Hayden]

That's crazy! The most job security I've ever seen was at a metal fabrication shop. The experienced journeyman seemed to have real job security, whether from the union or just the demand for their skills. They were treated well.

[Scot Dutchy]

Permanent here means here you cant be sacked or retired for any reason unless its criminal.

I’d be surprised. Even in the workers’ paradise of the Netherlands companies go bust, people break the conditions of their contracts, companies merge and all the rest of it. A job for life in the ever changing ebb and flow of commerce and the workplace generally?

I was personally party to two cases of dismissal over the years concerning people who were shit at their jobs and despite support (over a year long in one case) didn’t hack it.

Unquittable contracts? I cannot imagine. Not even marriage is unquittable. let alone a work contract, on both ends.

It is not impossible but can be extremely difficult. I survived two reorganisations because of my career performance. I did once have to bring in my own lawyer during one reorganisation but one letter from him was enough.
It is the way we work here. Dutch are loyal hard workers and very efficient but expect to be treated fairly. The employment laws make sure they are. We are not unique and you will find similar situations in other Northern European Social democracies.

[Rum]

Well that is interesting. I’m on the left as these things go generally but rules like this seem too restricting to me. In one of the dismissal cases I mentioned it concerned a case worker in a team I managed a while back who, amongst other things, faked records in his files as evidence of work (which he hadn’t done), and even hid some files at one point. I even allocated a senior case worker to support him and basically hold his hand for a time as he was clearly struggling with the case work involved. The amount of time and energy involved was crap - and of course it was stressful for the other staff, not to mention me and of course the guy himself. He had to go. The thought of spinning it out over three years or for that matter having some sort of court involved seems to me hugely over the top.

As often in such cases here he went off on sick leave and then quit. He got into local politics after that, which kind of figured.

[Scot Dutchy]

That's crazy! The most job security I've ever seen was at a metal fabrication shop. The experienced journeyman seemed to have real job security, whether from the union or just the demand for their skills. They were treated well.

Well come and live here and experience for your self. I had a permanent contract for 30 years as programmer as did so many. Our labour laws are very strict. A couple of simple points. In an office I was entitled to 8 m2 of floor space. Also I must be able to look outside or get access to outside light every hour. There are so many. We had a special working situation inspector appointed by the works council. What he said was law. You wanted a new chair, Danish chair or bouncy ball to sit on. You just called him in.
Our British colleagues were always very jealous.

[Scot Dutchy]

Well that is interesting. I’m on the left as these things go generally but rules like this seem too restricting to me. In one of the dismissal cases I mentioned it concerned a case worker in a team I managed a while back who, amongst other things, faked records in his files as evidence of work (which he hadn’t done), and even hid some files at one point. I even allocated a senior case worker to support him and basically hold his hand for a time as he was clearly struggling with the case work involved. The amount of time and energy involved was crap - and of course it was stressful for the other staff, not to mention me and of course the guy himself. He had to go. The thought of spinning it out over three years or for that matter having some sort of court involved seems to me hugely over the top.

As often in such cases here he went off on sick leave and then quit. He got into local politics after that, which kind of figured.

The court would have been against him and issued the licence to sack him. It would have taken long.
It is the small business court. Very casual. You can get cases dealt within 24 hours.

[Rum]

Yeah but earlier you said you only lose your job if you do something illegal. So incompetence *is* a potential reason then? Just takes three years?

[laklak]

I realized back in about 1989 that there was no such thing as job security, and that the only person who was going to look out for me was me. Working for CorpWorld was a total cluster fuck, you were less then dog shit on their corporate shoes. I was "independent without personnel" from that time till I retired in 2009. Never got sick pay, vacation days, a pension plan or insurance. After 2009 I did a few oddball things but there was no point in staying in IT. Too old and expensive, though I did think about getting back into CICS/COBOL mainframes, only a few old dinosaurs like me left these days but I was sick of traveling.

[DRSB]

I don't see how jobs can be secure unless the shareholders can guarantee they won't fold. And how can they unless they are the state?

[rainbow]

I don't have to have actually been to your village in Africa to know that their economic system is not one I want to emulate.

I don't know whether you're being intentionally thick

The economic system I describe is not put forward as a model for the world to follow, but it is an example of a Free Market System. It is reality, not an ideal.

Following so far?

[Scot Dutchy]

Yeah but earlier you said you only lose your job if you do something illegal. So incompetence *is* a potential reason then? Just takes three years?

"Just takes three years". That is only for the annual assessments required. The court would expect more to be done to correct the situation before coming to the court. With a good lawyer it can be a long drawn out process. Why give someone a permanent contract who obviously not fit for the job? Is what would a first question. Then new conflicts in the work place and why have they not been discussed and solved? So it goes on and on.
Doing anything illegal can lead to instant dismissal. Conflicts dont.