The limits of freedom of speech

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The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:11 pm

A new case in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in the US found:
"A La Mesa man who posted racial epithets and a call to "shoot" Barack Obama on an Internet chat site was engaging in constitutionally protected free speech, a federal appeals court ruled Tuesday in overturning his criminal conviction.

Walter Bagdasarian was found guilty two years ago of making threats against a major presidential candidate in comments he posted on a Yahoo.com financial website after 1 a.m. on Oct. 22, 2008, as Obama's impending victory in the race for the White House was becoming apparent. Bagdasarian told investigators he was drunk at the time.



A divided panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned that conviction Tuesday, saying Bagdasarian's comments were "particularly repugnant" because they endorsed violence but that a reasonable person wouldn't have taken them as a genuine threat.

The observation that Obama "will have a 50 cal in the head soon" and a call to "shoot the [racist slur]" weren't violations of the law under which Bagdasarian was convicted because the statute doesn't criminalize "predictions or exhortations to others to injure or kill the president," said the majority opinion written by Judge Stephen Reinhardt.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... rules.html

For the non-Americans out there, the US has federal courts and state courts. State court decisions only have applicability within a given state. The above was a "federal" case, which meant that the guy was arrested and went to trial in federal "district" court. Districts are basically regions of the country. Several districts are lumped together to form a "Circuit." And, once a person is convicted by the "district" court in a criminal case they have the right to appeal to the higher "Circuit" court of appeal. There are 11 "Circuits" throughout the US, and the above case was brought before the 9th Circuit, which covers all of the districts in the following states: Alaska, Arizona, Hawaii, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington and California. (some states have only one "district", but a lot have multiple districts within the state, usually designated "eastern district of...." "western district of..." "southern district of...." and the like).

So, the 9th Circuit court of appeals reversed the conviction here citing a fundamental liberty, and that mere predictions or exhortations of violence are within protected speech. The 9th Circuit is generally reputed to be the most "liberal" and "judicially active" of the Circuits, most often chided by the right and lauded by the left in the United States.

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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Cormac » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:56 pm

Was anyone tried and convicted of similar "threats" to GW?
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Ian » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:58 pm

I'm a bit unclear as to what the man actually said (wrote). Predicting an assassination is perfectly legal, as is voicing an opinion that it would be a good thing. Threatening to do it yourself is a crime, of course. Explicitly advocating it is likely a crime as well, but what precisely did he say? The story references a "call to 'shoot'" Obama. The difference between saying "someone oughtta shoot that guy" and "i want you, reader, to shoot that guy" could be the difference between acquittal and conviction.

France might want to take note. They sent John Galliano to the clink just for getting drunk and making anti-semitic slurs.

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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:21 pm

Cormac wrote:Was anyone tried and convicted of similar "threats" to GW?
He used to receive tons of death threats, most of which went unprosecuted.

A guy by the name of Truitt pleaded guilty in 2007 to sending a letter threatening to kill President Bush, First Lady Laura Bush and mother Barbara Bush. Ian makes a good point about the article not stating exactly what this fella was accused of saying. I suppose there is a difference between, "I'm going to kill you, your wife and your mother" and "someone should shoot the President." Not sure where the guy in the 9th circuit case is on this spectrum.

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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Cormac » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:32 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Cormac wrote:Was anyone tried and convicted of similar "threats" to GW?
He used to receive tons of death threats, most of which went unprosecuted.

A guy by the name of Truitt pleaded guilty in 2007 to sending a letter threatening to kill President Bush, First Lady Laura Bush and mother Barbara Bush. Ian makes a good point about the article not stating exactly what this fella was accused of saying. I suppose there is a difference between, "I'm going to kill you, your wife and your mother" and "someone should shoot the President." Not sure where the guy in the 9th circuit case is on this spectrum.
Yep, I appreciate the distinction.
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:28 pm

PARIS (AP) — A Paris court convicted former Christian Dior designer John Galliano on Thursday for making anti-Semitic insults in a bar but gave him only a suspended sentence, taking into account his apology to the victims.
Galliano, who didn't attend the announcement of the verdict, was given no prison time. He was given a suspended euro6,000 ($8,400) fine, which means it goes on his criminal record but he does not have to pay it.
The Paris court found him guilty of "public insults based on origin, religious affiliation, race or ethnicity" stemming from two separate incidents at a Paris bar.
http://news.yahoo.com/court-convicts-ga ... 43452.html

This is no better than UN antiblasphemy legislation...

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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Schneibster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:00 pm

The French got tired of dealing with chickenshits who work the system because they can't stop lying and don't like it when someone tells them so. The Germans have a problem with it too. Get over it.
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:23 pm

Interesting case of the Irvine 11:
Opening statements were given yesterday in the trial of the Irvine 11, UC Irvine students charged with misdemeanor violations for disrupting a speech given on their campus in 2010. The incident occurred when Israel’s Ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, was interrupted repeatedly during an evening appearance before a large crowd. The civil disobedience was organized by the University’s Muslim Student Union, which opposed the Israeli government’s 2008 military invasion of Gaza, Operation Cast Lead. An estimated 1,400 Palestinians were killed over weeks of airstrikes and ground attacks. During Ambassador Oren’s speech, taking place one year after the controversial military operation, 10 members of the Muslim Student Union stood up one-by-one and shouted statements, including calling Oren a war criminal. Each student was escorted out of the event and arrested by police. The 11th student was arrested for joining a group protest and walk-out. UC Irvine administration disciplined the Muslim Student Union by suspending its charter for one quarter, and placing it on probation for two years. However Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas picked-up the case as a criminal matter, charging the 11 arrested students with conspiring to commit a crime, and for disturbing a meeting. The case has attracted national attention and many people, including some who disagree with the students’ tactics, say the DA is violating the students’ right to freedom of speech. Prosecutors argue the students violated the free speech rights of Ambassador Oren and audience members. If convicted, the Irvine 11, which has shrunk to 10, face sentences ranging from mandatory community service, to up to one year in jail. In July, the 11th student entered into an agreement with prosecutors, agreeing to complete 40 hours of community service by late September in order to have charges against him dropped. Judge Peter Wilson issued a gag order, prohibiting prosecutors, defense attorneys and the students on trial from discussing the case.
http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=23521

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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Schneibster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:15 pm

Orange county? They'll be found guilty. Their lawyer should get a change of venue.
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Forty Two » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:08 am

In the UK, the limits might soon include private online discussion forums - https://reason.com/blog/2018/09/12/brit ... your-priva

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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Hermit » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:05 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:08 am
In the UK, the limits might soon include private online discussion forums - https://reason.com/blog/2018/09/12/brit ... your-priva
From your link:
U.K. Parliament member Lucy Powell of the Labour Party wants to use her government authority to ban your private online group discussions.
No, she does not. What she does aim for is "establishing legal accountability for what’s published in large online forums".
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by cronus » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:09 pm

Hermit wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:05 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:08 am
In the UK, the limits might soon include private online discussion forums - https://reason.com/blog/2018/09/12/brit ... your-priva
From your link:
U.K. Parliament member Lucy Powell of the Labour Party wants to use her government authority to ban your private online group discussions.
No, she does not. What she does aim for is "establishing legal accountability for what’s published in large online forums".
Unlikely to lose free speech here then....
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Svartalf » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:11 pm

'accountability' is a destruction of free speech since it makes you liable tu being sued if your speech offends some
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:13 pm

I better knock off the repeated calls to "bomb the cunts"... :whistle:
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Re: The limits of freedom of speech

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:33 pm

Here we go again: Free Speech is a right to criticise the government free from interference or censure, not a consequence free licence to say whatever you like, to any person or group in any context. Now, if the government want to hold forums, like Facebook, Twitter, or even lil' ol' Ratz, accountable for contributions which may constitutes hate speech or incitement to violence etc, or which act as vehicles for the commissioning of a crime, then that's a different matter. So which is it?
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