US v Manafort
- Sean Hayden
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Re: US v Manafort
Maybe what bugs me is this insistence and my inability to believe you that you're defending these principles rather than using them to avoid harmful political fallout.
I mean it's well known that in the real word innocent people are routinely pressured by the state through their associations with criminals. In fact being found to associate with criminals, especially anything resembling organized crime (..and it's not beyond the state to invent organized crime just so they can abuse this fact...), can be enough to land you in big trouble all by itself. It is not enough evidence or evidence of the right kind to convict in my opinion. But in the real world, it's evidence.
I mean it's well known that in the real word innocent people are routinely pressured by the state through their associations with criminals. In fact being found to associate with criminals, especially anything resembling organized crime (..and it's not beyond the state to invent organized crime just so they can abuse this fact...), can be enough to land you in big trouble all by itself. It is not enough evidence or evidence of the right kind to convict in my opinion. But in the real world, it's evidence.
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Re: US v Manafort
Believe whatever you want. I'm consistent in the application of these principles, and they have nothing to do with political fallout. I could speculate that you like to ignore these kinds of principles, in order to rationalize a particular political point of view. However, that would be irrelevant.Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:20 pmMaybe what bugs me is this insistence and my inability to believe you that you're defending these principles rather than using them to avoid harmful political fallout.
Absolutely, and I've made no secret of my staunch opposition to what the FBI does in these situations. If one is a middle class person caught up in a federal prosecution, you're fucked. It's a $100,000 in legal fees, and they make sure that if you don't roll, they'll put you at significant risk by over-charging the case. The truth of that doesn't mean it becomes fair when they prosecute Manafort.Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:20 pm
I mean it's well known that in the real word innocent people are routinely pressured by the state through their associations with criminals.
I'm glad to hear you acknowledge that the good, hardworking FBI and other federal officials, toiling thanklessly away to keep us all safe, are nevertheless willing to "invent" things in order to gain a prosecution. Might even be that where a big fish or whale can be caught, such inventions are even more likely, and perhaps even politics can play a part....Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:20 pmIn fact being found to associate with criminals, especially anything resembling organized crime (..and it's not beyond the state to invent organized crime just so they can abuse this fact...), can be enough to land you in big trouble all by itself. It is not enough evidence or evidence of the right kind to convict in my opinion. But in the real world, it's evidence.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
- Sean Hayden
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Re: US v Manafort
Hey, you tell me you're a defense attorney in Florida and my opinion changes immediately.Forty Two wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:45 pmBelieve whatever you want. I'm consistent in the application of these principles, and they have nothing to do with political fallout. I could speculate that you like to ignore these kinds of principles, in order to rationalize a particular political point of view. However, that would be irrelevant.Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:20 pmMaybe what bugs me is this insistence and my inability to believe you that you're defending these principles rather than using them to avoid harmful political fallout.
Absolutely, and I've made no secret of my staunch opposition to what the FBI does in these situations. If one is a middle class person caught up in a federal prosecution, you're fucked. It's a $100,000 in legal fees, and they make sure that if you don't roll, they'll put you at significant risk by over-charging the case. The truth of that doesn't mean it becomes fair when they prosecute Manafort.Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:20 pm
I mean it's well known that in the real word innocent people are routinely pressured by the state through their associations with criminals.
I'm glad to hear you acknowledge that the good, hardworking FBI and other federal officials, toiling thanklessly away to keep us all safe, are nevertheless willing to "invent" things in order to gain a prosecution. Might even be that where a big fish or whale can be caught, such inventions are even more likely, and perhaps even politics can play a part....Sean Hayden wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:20 pmIn fact being found to associate with criminals, especially anything resembling organized crime (..and it's not beyond the state to invent organized crime just so they can abuse this fact...), can be enough to land you in big trouble all by itself. It is not enough evidence or evidence of the right kind to convict in my opinion. But in the real world, it's evidence.
I've always associated Republicans with the worst abuses in terms of state power. I could be unfairly judging you based on that.
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Re: US v Manafort
I'm not a Republican. I'm no fan of state power.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: US v Manafort
You just support everything but their religion then?
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Re: US v Manafort
I can't believe anyone takes any of this stupid political theater seriously. It's ALL bread and circuses, y'all, the ones we see like Trumpy and that animated mummy Pelosi are just paid players. The real bosses are completely unknown to us lumpen mofos. They keep us distracted with political bullshit while they go about their nefarious business, looting the planet and probably raising us for meat.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Re: US v Manafort
Deep State, lak?
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Re: US v Manafort
Deep State vs. Pure/Good/Right/Just are not the only two options. To suggest that politics doesn't enter into these things is a
rather naive view of it.“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: US v Manafort
https://www.yahoo.com/news/lawyers-begi ... 11909.htmlDefense attorneys rested their case without calling witnesses on Manafort's behalf.
"The reason Mr Manafort put on no witnesses in his defense is that his lawyers and he believed that they created doubt through their examination of the government's witnesses," said Jacob S. Frenkel, a former US federal prosecutor and partner at Dickinson Wright law firm.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: US v Manafort
So you're of the opinion that the trial and the investigation that led to it are not legitimate proceedings?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: US v Manafort
I wouldn't say it's black and white. I have no illusions that Manafort may well be a tax evader and money launderer. That's not uncommon in the circles he traveled in. My suspicion is that the investigation is at bottom based, at least in part, on political machinations and political bias.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:31 pmSo you're of the opinion that the trial and the investigation that led to it are not legitimate proceedings?
I don't think the Manafort trial has anything to do with Trump/Russia. It's a money laundering and tax evasion case involving allegations from 2007 to 2014. However, it's portrayed as somehow a problem for Trump. And, I think that has been the intent. I also think that the prosecution was, at the outset, in part at least, a tool to try to get manafort to flip, which is why they went after him, and which is why they turned up the heat and put him in solitary confinement. Such pressure is not a conspiracy theory - it's a time-honored tactic of prosecutors.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: US v Manafort
The FBI are and Mueller are apolitical.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
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Re: US v Manafort
But there is a political dimension which can't really be avoided, and it's not a partisan one either. If Manafort or Gates' activities, their dodgy financial practices and tax arrangements, were known by some other party like, say, a Ukrainian or Russia operative, then they'd be ripe for influence and manipulation - compromised - and their respective positions and activities in the Trump campaign, transition, and presidency becomes a matter far more broad and significant than just a couple of potentially criminal fraudsters acting solely in their own interests and on their own behalf. In this regard the source of their income becomes every bit as relevant to the matter as what they actually did with it.Forty Two wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:54 pmI wouldn't say it's black and white. I have no illusions that Manafort may well be a tax evader and money launderer. That's not uncommon in the circles he traveled in. My suspicion is that the investigation is at bottom based, at least in part, on political machinations and political bias.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:31 pmSo you're of the opinion that the trial and the investigation that led to it are not legitimate proceedings?
I don't think the Manafort trial has anything to do with Trump/Russia. It's a money laundering and tax evasion case involving allegations from 2007 to 2014. However, it's portrayed as somehow a problem for Trump. And, I think that has been the intent. I also think that the prosecution was, at the outset, in part at least, a tool to try to get manafort to flip, which is why they went after him, and which is why they turned up the heat and put him in solitary confinement. Such pressure is not a conspiracy theory - it's a time-honored tactic of prosecutors.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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