Change the name of Israel

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 6:33 pm

Yeah, you can't move for gas chambers in East Jerusalem. Prick.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Animavore » Wed May 16, 2018 6:39 pm

When anti-semites and Islamaphobes collide. :lol:
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 16, 2018 6:40 pm

Stolen Jewish State?

See, that's the core of the problem. The situation can never be resolved if people take the position that Israel itself doesn't have a right to exist.

Israel was created by the League of Nations and its successor the UN, under the auspices of the British and French Mandates for Palestine, and that's how all the countries around there were born in the 1920s. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and yes, Israel. The lone holdout are these territories that were to be another arab Muslim state, but which they refused, choosing instead to attack the legally created, validly existing state of Israel, with the intent to destroy it completely. Is that the right thing to do?

So, Israel beat their asses back and took some land, which they are allowed to do when attacked. That's how wars work. If you get attacked, and you kick their ass, you can negotiate a peace like that. That's what happened.

Jordan,too. They annexed the West Bank in the 1950s. Nobody seems to have much of an issue with that. They later gave it up, but then again, they were the aggressor in that war.

Of course, then in 1967, it happened again.

The Oslo Accords, Israel accepts and honors them, and the Palestinians sign the deal and fail to honor its terms in a variety of ways. They attack Israel again and again. In the early 2000s, more peace plans are proposed - Palestinians never agree.

It all boils down to exactly the point you made - they think that Israel has no right to exist, because it stole the land. But, it did not steal the land. It's a lawful State and has been since 1948, and it has as much right to exist as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq, also carved out of the British and French Mandates for Palestine and all of which were created under the auspices of the League of Nations and the UN.

On what basis is it claimed that the land is stolen?

One basis alone is ever really offered. Jewishness. If it was a Muslim state, nobody would call it stolen. It's a Jewish state, so it's stolen. That's the only difference. If a person says Israel is stolen, then they must also call Jordan a stolen state, and Syria, and Lebanon, and Iraq, and all of those countries have expelled massive populations of people and have refugees, etc., mostly Christians and Jews, but nobody cares that much, because well, for some reason the middle east must be Muslim, and Christians and Jews are the interlopers.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 7:49 pm

Careful 42, you get called an Islamaphobe if you support Israel's right to exist.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Animavore » Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm

No one is questioning Isreal's right to exist. And Palestine don't threaten Israel's right to exist in any way. Quite the opposite.

You're an Islamaphobe because your words expose you as such. Because your callous indifference (actually almost glee) to Palestinians dictates you are.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Wed May 16, 2018 9:27 pm

Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm
No one is questioning Isreal's right to exist. And Palestine don't threaten Israel's right to exist in any way. Quite the opposite.
That's not really accurate. Many Palestinians, and certainly Hamas as an institution, do not think that the state of Israel has a right to exist. More moderate Palestinians wanted to make it clear that the existence of Israel was part of the 2 state scenario, but have been consistently opposed by the radicals.

There has to be some RealPolitik here, folks. Israel exists, and it's not going to go away. Its current leadership does appalling things, and maintains a settlement program which gives radical Palestinians all the ammo they need to oppose serious negotiations towards a 2 state solution. Until the Israeli hawks are voted out (which seems unlikely), the current bloody stalemate is bound to continue.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:05 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:54 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:25 pm
...If the Palestinians wanted a two state solution, it is theirs for the taking. They just need to ask for it, and agree that Israel can be the other state of the two. They had a path to that with the Oslo Accords, and they crumpled it up and threw it away.
You don't think the responsibility for a negotiated settlement falls to both parties?
Of course, and the Oslo Accords was the negotiated settlement, and the Palestinian Authority immediately violated it in a variety of ways, which I've previously set out in detail, citing to the provisions of the Oslo Accords which the Palestinian Authority violated.

Had they abided by the terms, even substantially if not strictly, they could have proposed that their self-governance under the Accords be made into a State with the Oslo Accord borders.

The two major peace plans of 2003 – the US-sponsored road map to peace in the Middle East and the unofficial Geneva accord – could have been embraced had it not been for a bloody intifada by the Palestinians. Before that, the Oslo Accords would have worked, but the Palestinians refused to amend their constitution to get rid of the "destory Israel" covenant, and broke the Accords in several different ways.

The major obstacle to peace is that the Palestinians themselves, overwhelmingly, do not support a resolution which allows Israel to exist.
I asked because you appeared to be doing the sectarian shuffle - it's always the other lot who are responsible and it's always down to them to satisfy the conditions of the other-other lot first.

Look, Gaza is a humanitarian disaster area. Egypt, Israel, and the PA bear and share responsibility for this. Sure Hamas are a bunch of ideological zealots, bolstered by Iran, who put their own interests first - preferring to posture and spend what little money there is on guns and bullets rather than ensuring a stable power supply or sanitation services, schools and hospitals, teachers and doctors and the like. But Hamas is not the Palestinian people, and the Palestinian people are not Hamas. Gaza is under a strict economic blockade, a stranglehold tightly enforced by both Israel and Eygpt - there's no jobs, no meaningful agriculture, no manufacturing, no exports, and the main imports are drawn either from a very limit range of Israeli-approved humanitarian aid or the empty promises of religious ideologues. And as is always the case in regions of social breakdown the nasty guys with the guns get to control what little resources there are along with deciding who's going to get them - "Your children to the fence or you won't get your two bags of flour." Wilfully and persistently conflating the Palestinian people for Hamas is the kind of political bollocks that we've heard over and over again, in Northern Ireland, the Balkans, Chechnya, and Myanmar etc. It's a politically convenient method for casting the other lot, all of them, as fundamentally and inherently malign, devious, immoral, and violent, and of providing the other-other lot with the illusion of moral superiority that justifies whatever action is politically expedient to take against them. And it should be no surprise that the situation is boiling over, because as the humanitarian crisis deepens in Gaza, as it is, so grows the desperation and anger of the people - nudged in the back by the nasty guys with guns only to be shot in the face by Israel from the other side of the exclusion zone. Israel is the political, economic, and military force in this stand off, and it's escalation of the enmity between opposing ideologies now appears to be being politically sanctioned and underwritten by the current US administration. This suits the right-wingers and hardliners in Israel - it maintains the requisite level of perpetual threat that justifies their hardline stance and their political pleas that only they can secure and protect Israelis from the slavering hordes at their gate. They have no interest in peace, and indeed need Gaza to be in crisis to justify their existence and their actions. This was shown not too long ago when one high ranking Israeli responded to the idea of Palestinian protesters breaching the fence with something to the effect of, "Let them. We have enough bullets for everyone." Now we're treated to the Israel administration once again shifting the burden entirely onto Hamas, and by extension everyone in Gaza - man, woman and child - making them entirely responsible for Israel's killing of predominantly unarmed protesters on the Gaza side of the exclusion zone. How is peace even possible if that kind of rhetoric reflects the prevailing view of the Israeli administration? So yeah, I call the sectarian shuffle on this kind of reflexive apologetics for Israel's ongoing action in this crisis, and to my mind much of it is a cosy convenience that belies not just a abject failure of common decency but it also handily avoids holding Israel to account for what it's actually done, and continues to do, with regards to Gaza and the Palestinian people.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Animavore » Wed May 16, 2018 9:42 pm

JimC wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:27 pm
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm
No one is questioning Isreal's right to exist. And Palestine don't threaten Israel's right to exist in any way. Quite the opposite.
That's not really accurate. Many Palestinians, and certainly Hamas as an institution, do not think that the state of Israel has a right to exist. More moderate Palestinians wanted to make it clear that the existence of Israel was part of the 2 state scenario, but have been consistently opposed by the radicals.

There has to be some RealPolitik here, folks. Israel exists, and it's not going to go away. Its current leadership does appalling things, and maintains a settlement program which gives radical Palestinians all the ammo they need to oppose serious negotiations towards a 2 state solution. Until the Israeli hawks are voted out (which seems unlikely), the current bloody stalemate is bound to continue.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Wed May 16, 2018 9:49 pm

Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm
You're an Islamaphobe because your words expose you as such. Because your callous indifference (actually almost glee) to Palestinians dictates you are.
Lack of supporting evidence and outright falsehoods noted.

Utterly tedious.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by mistermack » Wed May 16, 2018 9:58 pm

I don't question the Stolen Jewish State's right to exist.
So long as they don't do it in someone else's country against their wishes.

Can anybody name a people that would give their consent for millions of foreigners coming and setting up a state on their lands?

The US???? The UK???? Ireland ??? Australia ?????

You people are full of shit, claiming that the shithole has a "right to exist".
What you mealy mouthed cunts are really claiming is that they have a "right" to keep the land they have stolen from it's rightful inhabitants.

Of course, in the US, you have the right to keep stolen property. We all know that.
Funnily enough, the Jews are very hot on stolen paintings being returned to the descendants of the owners. But the exact opposite principle applies to land that THEY have stolen.

Two faced cunts.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Animavore » Wed May 16, 2018 10:04 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:49 pm
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm
You're an Islamaphobe because your words expose you as such. Because your callous indifference (actually almost glee) to Palestinians dictates you are.
Lack of supporting evidence and outright falsehoods noted.

Utterly tedious.
Dude, you practically gloated that the Israelis had done a good job slaughtering Palestinians. Self-righteous indignation is your only response. It's utterly appalling what you said. Reminds me of the apologists for Bloody Sunday.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Wed May 16, 2018 10:20 pm

mistermack wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:58 pm
I don't question the Stolen Jewish State's right to exist.
So long as they don't do it in someone else's country against their wishes.

Can anybody name a people that would give their consent for millions of foreigners coming and setting up a state on their lands?

The US???? The UK???? Ireland ??? Australia ?????

You people are full of shit, claiming that the shithole has a "right to exist".
What you mealy mouthed cunts are really claiming is that they have a "right" to keep the land they have stolen from it's rightful inhabitants.

Of course, in the US, you have the right to keep stolen property. We all know that.
Funnily enough, the Jews are very hot on stolen paintings being returned to the descendants of the owners. But the exact opposite principle applies to land that THEY have stolen.

Two faced cunts.
So, from this position, where is there a possibility for change? The polarisation on this issue is so extreme that there seems zero chance of ending the current bloody stalemate.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by mistermack » Wed May 16, 2018 10:30 pm

JimC wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:20 pm
So, from this position, where is there a possibility for change? The polarisation on this issue is so extreme that there seems zero chance of ending the current bloody stalemate
Haven't you worked it out yet? There is virtually no chance of any change.
There is zero intention by Israel, or the US, to do anything other than drive out the last Palestinian.
It's far more likely that plans are already in place to expand the shithole into neighbouring countries, while putting the blame on a new set of victims.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 pm

So, the lack of any ability to compromise in the slightest, on both sides, means no end in sight for death and destruction.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 pm

The biggest stumbling block to this situation in the easy cynicism which maintains that nothing can be done about it.
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