27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

[JimC]

Faku

Forum discussions, exactly like normal human conversations, tend to wander. There is nothing wrong with this, and it helps to keep a discussion interesting. People who try to stop this by telling people that this is not the theme are not doing anyone any favors.

This thread has wandered into gun politics. Fair enough. It is an interesting subject (at least, until Seth gets involved). Why not explore where it goes? (until Seth gets involved).

And, it is 100% connected to the OP. How could it not be?

Yes, but it is a repetitive issue in the states and this will only harden opinions on both sides of the debate making the impasse even more concrete. It isn't resolvable without major social upheaval and until then the gnu debate itself is best left on the shelf....

I agree that it will harden opinions on both sides. Obama was signalling he might move on this. I foresee lots of sieges in Montana...

[Cormac]

Psychopaths are very motivated and often take the time to carefully and deliberately lay out their plans. See shooting at Batman movie for example

If what you say is true we would be seeing psychopaths going on rampages all around the World in countries with strict gun laws using bombs made from fertilizer and such. Yet we don't....

In fact, attacks on children in schools do happen in other countries, with and without guns, IIRC.

[aspire1670]

That's what I've been saying this entire time - get at the root of the problem. However, the anti-gun nuts cannot see past their irrational bias and continue to trumpet the war song 'guns ARE the problem'.

It is easier to focus on the means rather than the cause because causes are complex and cause brain pain.

There is a poster on ftb making the sorts of dumb logic fail as yourself. "Teh shooter must be crazy therefore guns are not the problem." She is called Eris Caffee, are you related? Ever thought that every time you orgasm with your gun you might be part of a complex gun culture problem? Or does that cause you brain pain?

[Tyrannical]

It's a shame we don't use mental institutions anymore to segregate the insane from the rest of society.

[cronus]

It's a shame we don't use mental institutions anymore to segregate the insane from the rest of society.

I would say it is a lost cause with America now.

[macdoc]

Yes and the case in China points out the difference between firearm availability and and not....22 wounded - no one dead.

It IS changing albeit slowly and even in the US evidence is clear that tighter controls work and not a lost cause

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ed-states/

snip

. More guns tend to mean more homicide.

The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. Citations here.

9. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:

here is the support

Harvard Injury Control Research Center
Homicide

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide
Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.


4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

what causes brain pain is the stupid notion of some gun devotees that more guns are somehow not a problem and try to deflect that reality...
that's a fail ...

[Cormac]

Looks as if this is going on longer and in more places than the media would have us think:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_at ... ry_schools

[Cormac]

...and in secondary schools:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_at ... ry_schools

[Tyrannical]

Oh macdoc

I've two questions about that report
Does it distinguish between gun "ownership" and illegally possessing a gun?
Does it explain why cities (not States) with the most restrictive gun laws have high gun crime?

Both Chicago and D.C. have amongst the most restrictive firearm laws but also the highest gun crime.

[Svartalf]

Gun crime? Crimes related to guns (e.g. possession), or other crimes where guns get used (assault with deadly, murder or attempted, robberies etc)?

[Rum]

Frankly I have come to the basic unambiguous opinion that anyone who justifies the gun ownership laws in America as they are, are idiots and downright stupid. I've read and taken part in enough so called debate on the subject and nothing changes - nor is it likely to for a long while.

Enjoy your guns and justify the dead children (and other thousands of dead) any fucking way you want.

[mozg]

Frankly I have come to the basic unambiguous opinion that anyone who justifies the gun ownership laws in America as they are, are idiots and downright stupid. I've read and taken part in enough so called debate on the subject and nothing changes - nor is it likely to for a long while.

Enjoy your guns and justify the dead children (and other thousands of dead) any fucking way you want.

At least I am not a hypocrite. I'll say flat out that yes, this is the price we pay for the freedom we have. Yes, it is worth it.

How many people wearing diamonds on their fingers, around their necks, and in their ears are willing to admit that their fashion choices are more important than the lives of poor brown children in Africa?

[Rum]

Frankly I have come to the basic unambiguous opinion that anyone who justifies the gun ownership laws in America as they are, are idiots and downright stupid. I've read and taken part in enough so called debate on the subject and nothing changes - nor is it likely to for a long while.

Enjoy your guns and justify the dead children (and other thousands of dead) any fucking way you want.

At least I am not a hypocrite. I'll say flat out that yes, this is the price we pay for the freedom we have. Yes, it is worth it.

How many people wearing diamonds on their fingers, around their necks, and in their ears are willing to admit that their fashion choices are more important than the lives of poor brown children in Africa?

What utter stupid self justifying rubbish.

[mistermack]

Looks as if this is going on longer and in more places than the media would have us think:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_at ... ry_schools

One thing that is obvious from that page is that people will use whatever they can get, to maximise damage.
Several of those atrocities were done with explosives, and it seems absolutely obvious that if explosives were easier to get, there would be a lot more use of them.
The same obviously applies to guns. They are easy to get, and there is a lot of use of them. Make it harder to get one, and people have to use something else.
But explosives and guns make killing easy, and impersonal. It would be very hard to keep killing with a knife, when you see people dying slowly and bloodily.
A gun is quick, easy, and not so messy.
Any sane country would make guns and explosives as hard to get as possible, but of course, the USA is insane, in this regard.
They think it makes it ok, if you just fly a flag at half mast the next day, and do fuck-all. The only thing that might change minds, is if gun-lovers lose one of their own.

So at least there is one good thing that came from this. The shooter shot his own mother with her own gun. Good. One down, 100 million to go.
And about half the bereaved parents would have been gun owners. So they might have learn't a valuable lesson.
Nothing's all bad.

[mozg]

What utter stupid self justifying rubbish.

Well you're free to think so. Although it will be a waste of your time to think that I'll be giving up my guns, or that I feel in any way responsible for what some guy I never heard of before did in some town I never heard of to people I never met.