Officials Want to Keep Girl Off Boys' Golf Team

[FBM]

Yep no more gendered sports, let's see the women fail hard.

And in wrestling, the guys would win hard, too.

[Tyrannical]

Makes you wonder why the girls didn't want to play with her either, since there wasn't enough interest to field a girls team.

[Coito ergo sum]

If they are using handicaps it doesn't matter what tee they play from because there is a rule for adjusting strokes given in mixed tee tournaments.

I don't see the problem here.

I do, because her handicap is based on hitting from the near tees, if that's where she normally hits from. And, her handicap would be higher if she hit from the back tees. Moreover, the boys are not permitted to tee off from the near tees. So, there plainly is a difference.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, the difference is built into the handicapping system. Course ratings are not universal, they are different based on gender. There are two sets of course ratings. So, when she moves back to play the more difficult tees the course rating she faces is greater than the one the boys play against from the same set of tees. Technically, because of this, all women playing the same tees as men in a tournament should get extra strokes based on the difference in course ratings.

As for playing the forward tees, the boys could be (very unlikely) awarded strokes depending again on the difference in course ratings between the two sets of tees.

Of course, they probably aren't using a HI - sorry boys, drive longer!

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, the difference is built into the handicapping system. Course ratings are not universal, they are different based on gender. There are two sets of course ratings. So, when she moves back to play the more difficult tees the course rating she faces is greater than the one the boys play against from the same set of tees.

That's why there should be separate boys an girls teams. Or, if there are not separate boys and girls teams, then high handicap boys ought to be permitted to play with/against high handicap girls, just as low handicap girls would play against low handicap boys.

Technically, because of this, all women playing the same tees as men in a tournament should get extra strokes based on the difference in course ratings.

That doesn't make sense. It wouldn't be all "women" per say, but all high handicap golfers. Some courses have changed the name of the "ladies tees" and have started suggesting that men play from there if they suck. http://www.pga.com/pga-america/pga-feat ... initiative

The problem is, that in these competitions the winner is not the one who best beats their average or handicap. The winner is the one with the best absolute score.

In a PGA tour event, for example, you can't have some of the men teeing off from different tees. They all tee off from the same tees.

[Sean Hayden]

The problem is that I don't see an unfair advantage going to the girl. We already know that in theory in a handicap event she shouldn't get an advantage, and if it is a gross event then what could possibly be her advantage?

Your comment about high vs high and low vs low confuses me because the point of handicapping is to provide equality between hi / low so that people with vastly different abilities can still compete fairly. (I know, I know)

There are probably many other reasons to have boys / girls but I don't see one of them being that if girls play against boys they receive an unfair advantage.

[klr]

If they are using handicaps it doesn't matter what tee they play from because there is a rule for adjusting strokes given in mixed tee tournaments.

I don't see the problem here.

I do, because her handicap is based on hitting from the near tees, if that's where she normally hits from. And, her handicap would be higher if she hit from the back tees. Moreover, the boys are not permitted to tee off from the near tees. So, there plainly is a difference.

That's what I said earlier. Let her play from the same tees and play the same course. The ladies' tees are often sufficiently forward that bunkers and other hazards that would threaten a drive from a back tee are just not an issue.

[Coito ergo sum]

The problem is that I don't see an unfair advantage going to the girl. We already know that in theory in a handicap event she shouldn't get an advantage, and if it is a gross event then what could possibly be her advantage?

In a handicap event, if there is no advantage then there is no reason to ever have separate girls and boys teams. We'd just lump handicaps together in ranges, right? Or, let them all play together and all the low handicaps get to play, and that's that. But, for some reason, when that is done, women still don't compete well against the men/boys.

In a gross event, the advantage is that a player is hitting from 10 to 100 yards up the course, so they don't have to hit it as far. If there is no advantage to that, then why don't we just have all the boys hit from those tees too?

Your comment about high vs high and low vs low confuses me because the point of handicapping is to provide equality between hi / low so that people with vastly different abilities can still compete fairly. (I know, I know)

Yes, but the competitions they're having aren't scored based on each player's handicap. They are scored based on absolute score that day. So, a 2 handicap girl, going up against a 2 handicap boy, is not fair if you allow her to hit from the ladies' tees, because his handicap is based on hitting from the back tees all the time, and her handicap is based on hitting from the front tees all the time. They're playing different courses. The only way the handicaps tell us the same story is if the players are hitting from the same tees. Odds are a 2 handicap girl would be a much higher handicap that than -- 5, 6 or 10, whatever -- if hitting from the back tees.

You'd have a lot of 10 handicap boys, reducing their handicaps immediately and dramatically if they hit from the near tees.

There are probably many other reasons to have boys / girls but I don't see one of them being that if girls play against boys they receive an unfair advantage.

They do if they hit from closer tees.

It's like saying Danica Patrick wouldn't receive an unfair advantage in racing if she had a head start. Or, that a female pitcher in baseball wouldn't have an unfair advantage if she could pitch from 50 feet.

[Sean Hayden]

There would be an unfair advantage to men who played the forward tees because on average they drive the ball further than women. But the same hazards, bunkers and rough that would be out of play for most men at the forward tees are not out of play for women.

Your perception of an advantage to playing the forward tees therefore is simply your male privilege blinding you to the reality of women's play from the same tees. You sir, are a misogynist.

--//--

Seriously though, sorry for the confusion. In all my previous posts it is assumed that if the event is not handicapped then everyone plays from the same tees.

[Svartalf]

Yep no more gendered sports, let's see the women fail hard.

Boys could get their asses handed to them in golf, and definitely will in beach volley.

[Coito ergo sum]

There would be an unfair advantage to men who played the forward tees because on average they drive the ball further than women. But the same hazards, bunkers and rough that would be out of play for most men at the forward tees are not out of play for women.

Your perception of an advantage to playing the forward tees therefore is simply your male privilege blinding you to the reality of women's play from the same tees. You sir, are a misogynist.

LOL - yes, I have been informed of this already.

--//--

Seriously though, sorry for the confusion. In all my previous posts it is assumed that if the event is not handicapped that everyone plays from the same tees.

I would think that would be the case, but nothing I read makes that clear.

But, we still have the problem that girls' handicaps are measured from the front tees, so a 2 handicap girl, vs a 2 handicap boy, would be predicted to have roughly the same score if the girl hits from the front tees and the boy hits from the back tees. But, if the both hit from the same tees, the boy should handily defeat the girl, because if they both hit from the back tees, he's a 2 handicap and she isn't. She's a much higher handicap. So, if a 2 handicap girl is taking the spot of a boy whose higher handicap is based on always hitting from the back tees, then it's not fair because her handicap doesn't accurate reflect her handicap on the back tees.

[Svartalf]

Keep in mind this is s. Idaho...strong Mormon country.

[Tyrannical]

Many sports are based on divisions, so that teams closer in skill level play against each other in separate leagues. But that wouldn't work across gender lines either.

[Coito ergo sum]

Many sports are based on divisions, so that teams closer in skill level play against each other in separate leagues. But that wouldn't work across gender lines either.

I play recreational soccer with adults. When we play in mixed male/female games, we always have to have special rules. We've tried lots of suggestions. A woman has to be in goal half the time and when a woman is in goal, the men can't shoot, they have to pass to a woman to shoot. That was stupid, but popular among some.

I friend of mine who has a young son says it is very hard on the boys to play against the girls, because the girls learn real quick that that they can "play the game" kind of, and the boys have to play gingerly around the girls, and if you play hard against a girl you're scoffed for going to hard on a girl. But, if the girl beats you, you get scoffed for being beaten by a girl. It's very difficult to just play flat out because the boys play a more aggressive game, and knock each other over a lot, but they can't do that with girls.

Doesn't apply to golf, but it's just another perspective.