Having a form of identification to vote.

[MrJonno]

Nothing wrong with ID in itself but needs to be be backed by significant tax payers money in getting ID to people and in general encouraging people to vote

[Coito ergo sum]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... NETTXT3487

As I suspected nothing to do with fraud and everything to do with making it expensive in money and time for the poor to get to vote.

Come to the conclusion now no matter how good an idea may potentially look closely at where it is coming from.

That is bullshit, because, for example, the voter ID act in Pennsylvania, they included provisions in the law to issue free IDs to people, etc. That is why a court just upheld the voter ID law in PA, and the liberal Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens found in a previous case that there was ample evidence that protection against voter fraud is necessary.

[Coito ergo sum]

Yes. One should have to show ID, and I'd like to have people show that they understand the issues and are familiar with the candidates.

There isn't any way to implement a "show they understand the issues" test that can't be turned into political discrimination, though.

It needn't be any more discriminatory than a high school civics test.

Surely you see how this couldn't work.

The department of elections is a department of state government, and run by appointees of the Governor who is elected. Surely, if they create a test, they wouldn't lose the opportunity to tailor the civics test you're proposing to be like a push poll (suggesting the "right" answer), etc.

Surely you see that the Democrats and Republicans would define each other's positions somewhat differently... Does Ryan want to reform and fix Medicare to secure it for future generations? Or, does he want "privatize" healthcare and turn it into a voucher system that requires your grandmother to pay more? You get the idea...

[laklak]

Nothing wrong with ID in itself but needs to be be backed by significant tax payers money in getting ID to people and in general encouraging people to vote

There's no cost in Florida to get a state-issued photo ID. But you've got to drag your ass down to the licensing office and present your birth certificate, which is apparently too difficult for some to bother with. If they're too lazy to get an ID then they're probably too lazy to get to the polling station anyway, so it's a moot point.

How the hell can anyone survive in today's world without ID? You need it for everything. You can't get electric or gas or phone service without one, can't buy a car, open a bank account, buy an air ticket, cash a check or money order - honestly, how do these people survive?

[MrJonno]

How the hell can anyone survive in today's world without ID? You need it for everything. You can't get electric or gas or phone service without one, can't buy a car, open a bank account, buy an air ticket, cash a check or money order - honestly, how do these people survive?

You think any of those are relevant to those at the bottom of society?, photo id can be a pain the only one I've got a student card saying I'm a full time student (which I'm not) which often doesn't get accepted. I don't drive and carrying a passport around is an extremely bad ideas as I'm always going on holiday as its expensive to replace and extremely time consuming. You do need a lot of ID to open a bank account which is why a lot of people don't have them among other reasons through saying that its very very lax for credit cards. When my wife was ill she applied for a credit card for a Teddy Bear which now has £5000 /$8000 credit facility

My local doctor and blockbusters only required a bill with my name on it to register (which was a pain as most of them are in my wife's name I just pay them).

As for voting there should maximum of a 15 minute walk to the voting booth if you are healthy or easy access public transport (which should be free for voting). Voting should also be compulsory.

[Audley Strange]

Nothing wrong with ID in itself but needs to be be backed by significant tax payers money in getting ID to people and in general encouraging people to vote

Well the thing is that's costly. Everyone so far seems to have no objections on the principle itself, just implementation and cost. Since essentially this aimed towards those that can't generally afford it, I guess the taxpayer could reasonably pay the burden. I'd have no problem with that in and of itself.

However the consensus here seems to be that the poor tend towards indolence when it comes to such things as state registration and voting and the like. I accept that we are speaking in crass generalisations, but the point is fair. So given that, it is likely keep losing their I.D.'s or sell them to criminals and this would mean them ending up in trouble , costing the state more in needless civic suits, penalising them by fining them for being indolent poor folks and making them criminals, thus keeping them poor.

The principle itself though, that's sound. So given those two factors I think the best, well, most reasonable thing to do would be to find a low cost and permanent I.D. One that could not be lost or stolen or sold for crack. I don't know something like an RFID implant or small tattoo, everyone fingerprinted or given a retinal scan on a database. Something like that?

Yeah and this having to travel to voting booths could be solved by that too. No need to actually go to a voting booth when you could sent your vote by encrypted text message.

[Coito ergo sum]

How the hell can anyone survive in today's world without ID? You need it for everything. You can't get electric or gas or phone service without one, can't buy a car, open a bank account, buy an air ticket, cash a check or money order - honestly, how do these people survive?

You think any of those are relevant to those at the bottom of society?,

Yes, absolutely, they do. The bottom of society here still have places to live, with utilities, phones, food stamp credit cards, automobiles, televisions, and the like.

photo id can be a pain the only one I've got a student card saying I'm a full time student (which I'm not) which often doesn't get accepted.

Here you can get an ID which looks just like a drivers license, and is accepted just as readily.

I don't drive and carrying a passport around is an extremely bad ideas as I'm always going on holiday as its expensive to replace and extremely time consuming. You do need a lot of ID to open a bank account which is why a lot of people don't have them among other reasons through saying that its very very lax for credit cards. When my wife was ill she applied for a credit card for a Teddy Bear which now has £5000 /$8000 credit facility

My local doctor and blockbusters only required a bill with my name on it to register (which was a pain as most of them are in my wife's name I just pay them).

As for voting there should maximum of a 15 minute walk to the voting booth if you are healthy or easy access public transport (which should be free for voting). Voting should also be compulsory.

Voting should never be compulsory.

Voting booths should be convenient, and they are here. But, in the US -- and you have to understand that the US is radically different than the UK in terms of where people live -- it would be simply impossible for voting booths to be 15 minute walks from everyone's house. We live far apart here and almost everyone drives. To have a polling place that close to everyone's house in my county, there would have to be structures built all over the county just for that purpose - by the boatload. I can't even begin to estimate the number.

But, in my State, people can vote by mail as an option, and they have early voting so that if you can't make it on polling day there are other options. Polls are open from 7am to 7pm or 8pm, depending. Chances are the "less fortunate among us" are not working 12 hours a day every day (because if they are, they likely aren't "less fortunate" anymore...).

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that voting in the US is difficult. It's not. To register you can do so by, well, registering. I don't see any way around that. At some point, in order to vote you have to go on the voter rolls, and you can't just have people mailing in names to put on the rolls. At some point you have to show that the people on the rolls are real people. So, since I think we are all in agreement that registering is necessary, then I can't imagine what is wrong with asking for a flippin' ID. To get a darn driver's license here you have to show a birth certificate or a passport, along with multiple pieces of evidence that you are actually a resident of the State of Florida. Nobody is bitching about that, and most of the "less fortunate among us" drive.

[MrJonno]

Voting booths should be convenient, and they are here. But, in the US -- and you have to understand that the US is radically different than the UK in terms of where people live -- it would be simply impossible for voting booths to be 15 minute walks from everyone's house. We live far apart here and almost everyone drives. To have a polling place that close to everyone's house in my county, there would have to be structures built all over the county just for that purpose - by the boatload. I can't even begin to estimate the number.

Of course things are different but a UK election generally costs a couple of million pounds/dollars which US ones are measured in billions. Hmm how about taking a 10% tax from that should cover a lot of voting booths.

Don't you use schools and other public buildings for voting, kids managed to be bused in (one area of US public transport that is way superior to the UK)

[MrJonno]

Voting should never be compulsory.

It should be compulsory for exactly the reasons libertarians think it shouldn't. It reminds people that the benefits they get from being part of civilization are not inalienable or free, they come at a cost. It obviously has to include none of the above Census is compulsory isn't it in the US same principle

[Coito ergo sum]

Voting booths should be convenient, and they are here. But, in the US -- and you have to understand that the US is radically different than the UK in terms of where people live -- it would be simply impossible for voting booths to be 15 minute walks from everyone's house. We live far apart here and almost everyone drives. To have a polling place that close to everyone's house in my county, there would have to be structures built all over the county just for that purpose - by the boatload. I can't even begin to estimate the number.

Of course things are different but a UK election generally costs a couple of million pounds/dollars which US ones are measured in billions. Hmm how about taking a 10% tax from that should cover a lot of voting booths.

Don't you use schools and other public buildings for voting, kids managed to be bused in (one area of US public transport that is way superior to the UK)

Schools, public buildings, churches, etc. Yes, they are used. People have no trouble getting to the polls here. The poor people in the US generally have cars. Buses can take one all over town, although traveling by bus, by its very nature, sucks ass, but they are there. Folks living in urban areas can generally walk. Anyone living in suburbia needs a car to survive, so I don't see why they need extra polling booths so they don't have to drive.

[Coito ergo sum]

Voting should never be compulsory.

It should be compulsory for exactly the reasons libertarians think it shouldn't. It reminds people that the benefits they get from being part of civilization are not inalienable or free, they come at a cost. It obviously has to include none of the above Census is compulsory isn't it in the US same principle

It should never be compulsory because nonvoting is a form of voting.

I moved to a new house in a new county some time back and my voting district changed. I had no idea who was running for sheriff or judges or county commissioner and the like. That was all that was up in that election, and I did not feel informed enough to cast a vote. I chose not to vote in those elections, because going there and casting a ballot for the name that looks prettiest is irresponsible.

Your suggestion that voting ought to be mandatory as a "cost" of citizenship is ludicrous in light of your opposition to ID requirements. You would make voting mandatory and demand that people who have no interest in participating ought to be made to go through the cost, expense, time and/or trouble to vote, but you think it's too much to ask them to verify their identity? I love the arbitrary distinction of when individual responsibility is going to be required.

What's wrong with voting being an honor and civil right, requiring citizens who wish to participate to expend the cost and effort of trotting down to the State office and picking up and ID -- ONCE -- in order to vote? That's too much to ask, but you would ORDER them to go to the polling booths every election? LOL.

[mistermack]

How long can it be, before everyone will be voting online anyway?
I do virtually all my banking online now, and as far as I'm concerned, that means far more to me than my single vote.

If that's secure enough to be done online, then so is voting.
If it was done online, most people could access it. Even if they haven't got their own pc, they can ask a friend or neighbour, or use one in a public library. It might even save money and make counting more reliable.

[pErvinalia]

Many of the poor ARE fucking lazy. And disorganised. And less likely to vote.
Right wing people DO take voting more seriously.
It's just a fact.
So what? That's WHY those people are poor in the first place.

WTF?!? What a load of fucking bollocks. Let's see those "facts" that poor people are lazy. C'mon, back up your ignorant nonsense if you can.

[Wandering Through]

Your suggestion that voting ought to be mandatory as a "cost" of citizenship is ludicrous in light of your opposition to ID requirements. You would make voting mandatory and demand that people who have no interest in participating ought to be made to go through the cost, expense, time and/or trouble to vote, but you think it's too much to ask them to verify their identity? I love the arbitrary distinction of when individual responsibility is going to be required.

Of course things are different but a UK election generally costs a couple of million pounds/dollars which US ones are measured in billions. Hmm how about taking a 10% tax from that should cover a lot of voting booths.

A 10% tax from what? The cost of an election is borne by the taxpayers via the government (whose source of income is taxes). So, are you proposing that the government tax its own expenditure of tax money for elections to pay for further election expenditures?! I don't understand. If the government can raise funds by taxing its own expenditure of tax money, why do we have a deficit? Hell, at the rate we're spending money, we should have retired the national debt by now!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... NETTXT3487
As I suspected nothing to do with fraud and everything to do with making it expensive in money and time for the poor to get to vote.
Come to the conclusion now no matter how good an idea may potentially look closely at where it is coming from*.

*Emphasis mine
You said a mouthful there: Here's a little background on the Brennan Center for Justice cited in your article. No bias in that study, I'm sure.

Here is my problem with the lack of ID requirement: Just as you worry that requiring an ID will disenfranchise a poor left-leaning voter, I worry that the lack of an ID allows an unscrupulous individual who has "loaded" the voter registration rolls with false names or dead people to travel to different polling stations voting over and over again as the identities they falsely registered to vote. This means if they are voting against my interest, their 2,3,4, hell 20 votes have disenfranchised me!

I haven't seen anyone opposed to Voter ID requirements address this issue yet. Why is it unspeakable to risk disenfranchising a legitimate "disadvantaged" voter by requiring them to prove who they are, but perfectly ok to risk disenfranchising other legitimate votes via the fraud made possible by the lack of ID requirements?

[mistermack]

Many of the poor ARE fucking lazy. And disorganised. And less likely to vote.
Right wing people DO take voting more seriously.
It's just a fact.
So what? That's WHY those people are poor in the first place.

WTF?!? What a load of fucking bollocks. Let's see those "facts" that poor people are lazy. C'mon, back up your ignorant nonsense if you can.

No, YOU prove otherwise, if it's so important to you.
I know plenty of poor people are EXACTLY as I described them, and would happily admit it themselves. If you think it's not so, prove it.
I suspect you don't know many, or are just full of politically correct indignation.