Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, yeah, they're not synonymous, but they're virtually so, it seems to me; and for the purposes of this conversation it strikes me as a fair equivocation.

[Cunt]

If state-sanctioned conscription is not slavery, then pointing a weapon at a person and demanding that they make a charitable donation is not robbery.

You say that after boot camp the conscripts are even more free (as long as they agree to return to their masters). What if the honest conscript says through boot camp that he will only fire his weapon above the heads of the enemy soldiers and will not act to defend his fellow soldiers? Would his gently, respectfully expressed opinions have an effect on whether his slave-masters would allow him liberty to go bang hookers for the weekend?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If state-sanctioned conscription is not slavery, then pointing a weapon at a person and demanding that they make a charitable donation is not robbery.

Cunt, the folks who have been there have stated repeatedly that conscription is not slavery. If you can prove us wrong, please proceed.

You say that after boot camp the conscripts are even more free (as long as they agree to return to their masters). What if the honest conscript says through boot camp that he will only fire his weapon above the heads of the enemy soldiers and will not act to defend his fellow soldiers? Would his gently, respectfully expressed opinions have an effect on whether his slave-masters would allow him liberty to go bang hookers for the weekend?

The US has a mechanism for conscientious objectors. If you don't qualify and still refuse to fire your weapon, they will put you in the galley cleaning pots or other non-combat duty. There was one interval where I went to my CO and said I was not fit for combat. He sent me back to the base to work on diesels. That was rather cathartic.

[Cunt]

If state-sanctioned conscription is not slavery, then pointing a weapon at a person and demanding that they make a charitable donation is not robbery.

Cunt, the folks who have been there have stated repeatedly that conscription is not slavery. If you can prove us wrong, please proceed.

Gawdzilla, you suggested that those who hadn't spent time in the trenches couldn't know. If that is fair, you can't know because you were a volunteer, not a conscript.

You say that after boot camp the conscripts are even more free (as long as they agree to return to their masters). What if the honest conscript says through boot camp that he will only fire his weapon above the heads of the enemy soldiers and will not act to defend his fellow soldiers? Would his gently, respectfully expressed opinions have an effect on whether his slave-masters would allow him liberty to go bang hookers for the weekend?

The US has a mechanism for conscientious objectors. If you don't qualify and still refuse to fire your weapon, they will put you in the galley cleaning pots or other non-combat duty. There was one interval where I went to my CO and said I was not fit for combat. He sent me back to the base to work on diesels. That was rather cathartic.

So your options are (correct me if I am wrong)
1: Agree to follow orders in a satisfactory way and you get to work for the military.
2: Disagree with those orders and you get to work for the military.

Seems like very little choice to me. The really conscientious objectors must have fled the country because otherwise they would have been working for the organization to which they had objected.

Run in little circles all you want, it's still forced labour, whether it is repairing diesels or shooting 'enemies'.

[Traveler]

I don't know if this will resonate with anyone, or clear anything up, but this is how I'm feeling about it...

If I were drafted into the army, against my will, I would FEEL like a slave. Would I literally, by the dictionary, BE a slave? Dunno. Don't really care. Probably depends on what dictionary you use. But I would FEEL like a slave. The loss of freedom would FEEL like slavery. And I think perhaps that's where some of us are talking past each other.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Cunt, like I said, if you can prove us wrong, have at it. We know from direct personal experience, several decades worth. Arguing from movies, etc., will not fly here.

You second argument doesn't address the issue under discussion, whether or not conscription is, indeed, slavery.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You say that after boot camp the conscripts are even more free (as long as they agree to return to their masters). What if the honest conscript says through boot camp that he will only fire his weapon above the heads of the enemy soldiers and will not act to defend his fellow soldiers? Would his gently, respectfully expressed opinions have an effect on whether his slave-masters would allow him liberty to go bang hookers for the weekend?

Absolutely. I know of people who have asked for, and received, general discharges on the grounds of being unfit to serve. A buddy of mine who spent eight years in the Army got a big laugh in his basic training when during some classroom discussion of a tactical problem he said that if he got shot "it was going to be in the back". His DIs weren't happy about it, and they certainly gave him a hard time about it, but he lived. He went on to be a water-purification specialist.

Also, there is an opt-out to conscription: If the person has the freedom to move, he has the freedom to not serve. Thousands of Americans did it in response to the draft in the 60s and 70s. If you are able-bodied enough to be considered for the draft, you're able-bodied enough to move to a country which doesn't have one.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't know if this will resonate with anyone, or clear anything up, but this is how I'm feeling about it...

If I were drafted into the army, against my will, I would FEEL like a slave. Would I literally, by the dictionary, BE a slave? Dunno. Don't really care. Probably depends on what dictionary you use. But I would FEEL like a slave. The loss of freedom would FEEL like slavery. And I think perhaps that's where some of us are talking past each other.

Well, there's a lot of people who feel poor, who are only poor in the First-World sense of the word. I get what you're saying, but feelings aren't the qualifying factor here.

[Ian]

I don't know if this will resonate with anyone, or clear anything up, but this is how I'm feeling about it...

If I were drafted into the army, against my will, I would FEEL like a slave. Would I literally, by the dictionary, BE a slave? Dunno. Don't really care. Probably depends on what dictionary you use. But I would FEEL like a slave. The loss of freedom would FEEL like slavery. And I think perhaps that's where some of us are talking past each other.

This is a perfectly reasonable point of view, although I might point out that unlike slaves, military conscripts are paid and could potentially defer their service as conscientious objectors. But I do agree with your sentiments. And as someone who spent ten years in the military (albeit not "in the trenches" - I was a naval officer), I would like to say that I wouldn't want to serve alongside conscripts who didn't want to be there. Although I am too young to have known any.

I wonder, though, if the point of view you're bringing up is influenced by having had your formative years during the late Vietnam era. It might be different for the typical person growing up during WWII, when the nation's military needs were a lot more pressing.

The good news is that, in my opinion, the US is not likely to ever go back to conscription, unless a major occupation (i.e. much larger than Iraq) is required somewhere. And I don't know where that might be.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The good news is that, in my opinion, the US is not likely to ever go back to conscription, unless a major occupation (i.e. much larger than Iraq) is required somewhere. And I don't know where that might be.

Wales.

[Traveler]

...I wonder, though, if the point of view you're bringing up is influenced by having had your formative years during the late Vietnam era. It might be different for the typical person growing up during WWII, when the nation's military needs were a lot more pressing...

Yes, it might definately be different. If my country was invaded, if I was in imminent danger, if our country were directly threatened, if there were a Hitler-type on the horizon, I would probably fight for all I'm worth. Its hard to understand conscription in the current world context, and I'm really glad we no longer have it.

[Cunt]

I don't know if this will resonate with anyone, or clear anything up, but this is how I'm feeling about it...

If I were drafted into the army, against my will, I would FEEL like a slave. Would I literally, by the dictionary, BE a slave? Dunno. Don't really care. Probably depends on what dictionary you use. But I would FEEL like a slave. The loss of freedom would FEEL like slavery. And I think perhaps that's where some of us are talking past each other.

That sounds about right.

The good news is that, in my opinion, the US is not likely to ever go back to conscription, unless a major occupation (i.e. much larger than Iraq) is required somewhere. And I don't know where that might be.

America?

[Tyrannical]

The justification for conscription comes down to the justification of the war you are fighting and it should not be needed in peacetime.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The justification for conscription comes down to the justification of the war you are fighting and it should not be needed in peacetime.

The US didn't start drafting until 1940. At that time we had an Army smaller than Albania's. When Japan attacked we still didn't have a military of any real size and the first class of draftees was looking at being demobilized. Now I can say that the US was arguably at war at the time, but its a very thin case. However, the state of the world should have mandated we begin drafting even earlier to develop a core of trained reserves that could be called up when needed.

[Cunt]

Encourage volunteers all you like, but if you can only defend your country with conscripts there is not much to fight for.