What if Vegans are Actually Right?

[Sean Hayden]

Basically if you buy it from the butcher it’s been minimally processed. If it’s been made into a steak slurry, piped into a plastic bucket, and is ready after 3-5 minutes on high, then it’s probably ultra processed.

One attempt at an actual definition I found:

industrial formulations of processed food substances (oils, fats, sugars, starch, protein isolates) that contain little or no whole food and typically include flavorings, colorings, emulsifiers, and other cosmetic additives.

It’s not difficult to imagine meat alternatives being ultra processed according to this definition.

[JimC]

The processing of food is a continuum, not a binary "processed vs non-processed"...

[Sean Hayden]

Well yeah, that’s even in the term ultra processed right, ultra being the extreme end of the scale…

[macdoc]

It’s not difficult to imagine meat alternatives being ultra processed according to this definition.

Imagining shows no basis for reasonable conclusion.

Plant-based meat is rarely mentioned in landmark studies on UPFs, and in studies breaking down impact by food group, UPFs providing a source of fibre, such as plant-based meat were associated with reduced health risks. Given plant-based meat is so different in its nutritional makeup from the ‘average’ ultra-processed food, it seems unlikely the same findings can be generalised.

While more research is needed, studies that do focus on plant-based meat have found that eating it in place of conventional animal meat could:

Reduce risk of heart disease, the leading cause of death in Europe.
Reduce bowel cancer risk, the second leading cause of cancer death in Europe.
Improve gut health.
Help maintain a healthy weight.

snip

On the whole, evidence suggests that whether a plant-based meat product does or does not fall into the ultra-processed food category has little bearing on how healthy it is, and in fact, certain processing steps have been found to increase their nutritional value by adding or improving the bioavailability of important nutrients.

These studies do show that processed conventional meat specifically, unlike most ultra-processed food groups, is associated with specific downsides, supporting the argument that plant-based meat could offer people an easy way to reduce their overconsumption of processed conventional meat to recommended levels.

https://gfieurope.org/is-plant-based-me ... processed/

I'll stick with my BirdsEy substitutes but still seek a good burger made from beef on occasion.

[rasetsu]

"

It’s not difficult to imagine meat alternatives being ultra processed according to this definition.

Imagining shows no basis for reasonable conclusion.

Plant-based meat is rarely mentioned in landmark studies on UPFs, and in studies breaking down impact by food group, UPFs providing a source of fibre, such as plant-based meat were associated with reduced health risks. Given plant-based meat is so different in its nutritional makeup from the ‘average’ ultra-processed food, it seems unlikely the same findings can be generalised.

While more research is needed, studies that do focus on plant-based meat have found that eating it in place of conventional animal meat could:

Reduce risk of heart disease, the leading cause of death in Europe.
Reduce bowel cancer risk, the second leading cause of cancer death in Europe.
Improve gut health.
Help maintain a healthy weight.

snip

On the whole, evidence suggests that whether a plant-based meat product does or does not fall into the ultra-processed food category has little bearing on how healthy it is, and in fact, certain processing steps have been found to increase their nutritional value by adding or improving the bioavailability of important nutrients.

These studies do show that processed conventional meat specifically, unlike most ultra-processed food groups, is associated with specific downsides, supporting the argument that plant-based meat could offer people an easy way to reduce their overconsumption of processed conventional meat to recommended levels.

https://gfieurope.org/is-plant-based-me ... processed/

I'll stick with my BirdsEy substitutes but still seek a good burger made from beef on occasion.

[emphasise mine]

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If landmark studies don't include plant-based meat, what studies is the author appealing to for this 'evidence'?

Note that your graphic is based upon GFI'S own comparison, not an independent source.

About GFI Europe

The Good Food Institute Europe is an international nonprofit and think tank helping to build a more sustainable, secure and just food system by transforming meat production.

We work with scientists, businesses and policymakers to advance plant-based and cultivated meat – making them delicious, affordable and accessible across Europe.

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Just as with conventional meat products, there is a lot of variation in the level of processing different plant-based meat options undergo. Some products available in Europe today fit the Nova 1 ‘minimally processed’ definition, while others fall into the Nova 4 ‘ultra-processed’ category.

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The question of whether a given food is ultra-processed does not have a hard and fast answer.

ibid.

Gee, a pro-plant-based food organization has a pro-plant-based food view on the matter. I'm shocked.

[Strontium Dog]

The animal murder industry can't scaremonger about plant oestrogens in soya any more after it was politely pointed out to them that the Chinese have been eating soy for thousands of years, and they're a people so fertile their government literally had to pass a law to limit the number of children they have. So the latest wheeze is "processed foods", since a bunch of meat substitutes happen to be processed. Because obviously mashing up a mushroom turns it into a carcinogen, or something.

[macdoc]

As usual negative comment without a shred of support ....nothing new there.

"Perhaps they have a point"....if that's kind of counter argument posited.

[rasetsu]

As usual negative comment without a shred of support ....nothing new there.

"Perhaps they have a point"....if that's kind of counter argument posited.

Hahahahaha. I quoted your own source. You really are bereft of any sense.

[aufbahrung]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle ... h-33114142

https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/in ... 44392.html

If we were meant to eat plants we would be able to hear their screams as we decapitate them

[Brian Peacock]

Such as Brian or are you reverting to unsupported proclamations again

Can you try that one again in English please?

[Brian Peacock]

What defines ultra processed food? What's "processed" actually mean?

From the article:

Monteiro and his colleagues first used the phrase UPF 15 years ago when designing the food classification system “Nova”. This assesses not only nutritional content but also the processes food undergoes before it is consumed.

The system places food and drink into four groups: minimally processed food, processed culinary ingredients, processed food and ultra-processed food.

The Nova classification system:

The Nova classification (Portuguese: nova classificação, 'new classification') is a framework for grouping edible substances based on the extent and purpose of food processing applied to them. Researchers at the University of São Paulo, Brazil, proposed the system in 2009.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification

The NOVA categorizes all foods and food products into 4 groups based on the nature, extent and purpose of the physical, biological and chemical processes they have undergone following separation from nature...

https://nutrition.bmj.com/content/bmjnp ... rial-1.pdf

[rasetsu]

"Both proponents and opponents of Nova 'agree that food processing vitally affects human health', but not on its definition of ultra-processing."

[Brian Peacock]

The animal murder industry can't scaremonger about plant oestrogens in soya any more after it was politely pointed out to them that the Chinese have been eating soy for thousands of years, and they're a people so fertile their government literally had to pass a law to limit the number of children they have. So the latest wheeze is "processed foods", since a bunch of meat substitutes happen to be processed. Because obviously mashing up a mushroom turns it into a carcinogen, or something.

You're right in the first part, but the article was about the health impacts of a specific class of products - Nova's "ultra-processed foods" rather than 'processed foods' generally. In fact, one might argue that cooking a carrot makes it a 'processed food', so understanding what UPFs are or might be specifically is important for a decent discussion on the matter.

Previously some anti-veg*n commenters in the thread have tried to forward the argument that one can only 'go vegan' by relying on processed meat substitutes or alternatives &/or that the relatively high level of processing involved in 'vegan food' renders them unhealthy, and that veganism is by extension an unhealthy diet. It is a silly argument, but it is in that context that I thought it was important to acknowledge that "There are a lot of 'plant-based || meat alternative' UPFs out there too." I didn't say "all" or "every" plant-based/meat alternative product is a UPF (though macdoc seems to have instantly leapt upon his high horse on the assumption that I did, or that this is what I really meant), and I also wanted to avoid the weak and lazy charge that, as the forum's token vegan, I was only posting the article to take a pop at meat eaters.

While it is true one could eat as unhealthily as a veg*n as one could as a meat-eater, it also seems rather uncontroversial to say that reducing the levels of UPFs in one's diet is a more healthy approach to eating than not - regardless of one's culinary inclinations. The article is about the possible adverse health implications of UPFs, noting that that those impacts have as much to do with things like access to high-quality, nutritious ingredients, age, convenience, and economic capacity as to the prevalence of UPF products in the marketplace and people's everyday diet.

Nonetheless, I posted the article in the Vegan thread because I think nutrition is really important, as well as thinking that a vegan diet focused on fresh ingredients and containing minimal processed foods is generally a healthy and sustainable approach to personal nutrition.

At this point someone usually posts, "You'll have to wrestle my sausage from my cold, dead hands" or similar.

[Sean Hayden]

Sausage wraslin’!

[macdoc]

Brian - I only responded to your lack of citations to support your regularly available "opinion".
Playing "victim" won't cut it....support your "proclamations" and I'll stop sniping....no high horse required.