The size of the universe - a question.

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:20 pm

I'm high on opiates just in the last few minutes, in case you hadn't noticed a change in my posting style.. :drunk:
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:21 pm

Nope it was Hawkins on a docu.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:22 pm

yeah, but he was a retard.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:23 pm

I blame the opiates... :shifty:
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:34 pm

Why not.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:37 pm

I think I might be at the beginning stages of an addiction. They are SO fucking good. And they combine so well with the bi-polar med I'm taking. :?
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Rum » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Thanks for all the efforts! It seems to me that the available human set of sensory equipment, 'common sense' and everyday perception simply can't grasp the issues involved here. Maths/physics probably does a better job - well clearly it does - but sadly for me anyway there is no chance of learning that language well enough to go that route.

I'll pose the question in the OP to Brian Cox next Feb when I go to his roadshow - if I get a chance!

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:51 pm

I'm not sure what part you think wasn't answered. All observers, anywhere in the universe, can only see as far as the distance light has had time to travel in a sphere around them. Someone on the edge of your sphere doesn't add years to yours, doubling the age of the universe. They only double the distance. The 13.7 billion light years they can see away from you is light that is only reaching them now from that far side after 13.7 billion years.

I don't know if you're maybe getting confused here by a "light year" which is a measurement of distance, Not time at all. When you add 13.7 billion light years and 13.7 billion light years you get 27.4 billion light years. A distance (like adding 10km and 10km and getting 20km)*. Not 27.4 billion years!

*2.59224014949e+23 km
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:44 pm

This one is quite good...

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:29 am

Animavore wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:51 pm
I'm not sure what part you think wasn't answered. All observers, anywhere in the universe, can only see as far as the distance light has had time to travel in a sphere around them. Someone on the edge of your sphere doesn't add years to yours, doubling the age of the universe. They only double the distance. The 13.7 billion light years they can see away from you is light that is only reaching them now from that far side after 13.7 billion years.

I don't know if you're maybe getting confused here by a "light year" which is a measurement of distance, Not time at all. When you add 13.7 billion light years and 13.7 billion light years you get 27.4 billion light years. A distance (like adding 10km and 10km and getting 20km)*. Not 27.4 billion years!

*2.59224014949e+23 km
Yes, but because the speed of light is constant in the vacuum of space, then 27.4 billion light years in distance takes light 27.4 billion years to travel.

The issue is the concept of there being no centre of the universe. And Rum is saying that it's practically impossible to conceptualise that without mathematics. And neither you nor Brian have been able to actually explain the concept. You've only repeated rote facts, which I'm sure were stated in the doco he listened to.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:33 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:29 am
Animavore wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:51 pm
I'm not sure what part you think wasn't answered. All observers, anywhere in the universe, can only see as far as the distance light has had time to travel in a sphere around them. Someone on the edge of your sphere doesn't add years to yours, doubling the age of the universe. They only double the distance. The 13.7 billion light years they can see away from you is light that is only reaching them now from that far side after 13.7 billion years.

I don't know if you're maybe getting confused here by a "light year" which is a measurement of distance, Not time at all. When you add 13.7 billion light years and 13.7 billion light years you get 27.4 billion light years. A distance (like adding 10km and 10km and getting 20km)*. Not 27.4 billion years!

*2.59224014949e+23 km
Yes, but because the speed of light is constant in the vacuum of space, then 27.4 billion light years in distance takes light 27.4 billion years to travel.

The issue is the concept of there being no centre of the universe. And Rum is saying that it's practically impossible to conceptualise that without mathematics. And neither you nor Brian have been able to actually explain the concept. You've only repeated rote facts, which I'm sure where stated in the doco he listened to.
Rum said nothing about the universe having no centre. And it's irrelevant to understanding the point. Stop trying to confuse the issue.

No light has had time to travel 27.4 billion years yet so no one can see that distance. We can only see half from anywhere. When the universe reaches 27.4 billion years old that's how far anyone will be able to see, assuming the universe is wider and longer than that.

I'm not understanding the difficulty here at all.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:40 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:44 pm
This one is quite good...

I'm just going to comment on this as I go, so that I don't forget what I was going to say after it is finished.

Straight away he makes the same seemingly contradictory statement that "space" expands, but the speed of light doesn't change in equivalent ratio to reflect that change. If a metre gets literally bigger: i.e. at time t, 1 metre takes up a certain amount of space, and then at time t+1 that same amount of space is literally bigger (again, in relation to what?), then I can't see how a metre isn't bigger by the same ratio. And referring to a circular argument re a metre equals the distance light travels in a set amount of time, and the speed of light is constant, therefore a metre is constant, isn't an answer.

The other thing to say about this is that at the end of the video he talks about the space expanding into itself, because you can "never run out of infinity". That doesn't seem to make sense based on my understanding of infinity. Infinity is the largest thing you can get. There's no such thing as infinity + 1, or infinity x 2. If the universe is already infinitely big, it literally (by my understanding of infinity) can't expand.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:53 am

Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:33 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:29 am
Animavore wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:51 pm
I'm not sure what part you think wasn't answered. All observers, anywhere in the universe, can only see as far as the distance light has had time to travel in a sphere around them. Someone on the edge of your sphere doesn't add years to yours, doubling the age of the universe. They only double the distance. The 13.7 billion light years they can see away from you is light that is only reaching them now from that far side after 13.7 billion years.

I don't know if you're maybe getting confused here by a "light year" which is a measurement of distance, Not time at all. When you add 13.7 billion light years and 13.7 billion light years you get 27.4 billion light years. A distance (like adding 10km and 10km and getting 20km)*. Not 27.4 billion years!

*2.59224014949e+23 km
Yes, but because the speed of light is constant in the vacuum of space, then 27.4 billion light years in distance takes light 27.4 billion years to travel.

The issue is the concept of there being no centre of the universe. And Rum is saying that it's practically impossible to conceptualise that without mathematics. And neither you nor Brian have been able to actually explain the concept. You've only repeated rote facts, which I'm sure where stated in the doco he listened to.
Rum said nothing about the universe having no centre. And it's irrelevant to understanding the point. Stop trying to confuse the issue.
It's central to the issue, and Rum certainly did refer to it with the balloon analogy. Without this concept it is impossible to explain how every point in the universe can see 13.7 billion light years in any direction. It's also impossible for the universe to be bigger than 27.4 billion light years across if it is a sphere with a centre. And from the Veritasium video, it's supposedly 93 billion light years in diameter. So it's the central point to the whole problem. The issue is clearly a clash of two different theories. And Veritasium confuses them in the one video. It's literally incoherent to declare the universe a sphere with a diameter of 93 billion light years, and at the same time assert that there isn't a centre to the universe (a la the "infinite universe big bangy theory"). The latter is the only way (that I can think of, and that you have stated) that you can have a universe without a centre. So you can't have both a spherical finite universe, and one where every point in space can see 13.7 billion light years in every direction.
I'm not understanding the difficulty here at all.
Because you seemingly aren't putting the seperate pieces together into a whole. The whole is incoherent with the pieces that you've tried to explain.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:59 am

He doesn't say the universe is a sphere. He says the observable universe looks like a sphere to the observer. Kind of like the way the horizon looks like a circle when standing on Earth. This is because we can only see the same distance in all directions in both cases. All distances beyond that are out of our view. With horizons because of the curvature of the Earth. With space because the light from further distances hasn't reached us yet.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:10 am

edit: hang on, thinking about this reply more.
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