The size of the universe - a question.

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue May 15, 2018 10:43 am

You cant say an absolute no. Do you have the knowledge to say it. I doubt it. You think just because it is not there it cant exist. Your no should be qualified but it never is. Our knowledge of the cosmos is far from absolute. We are just scraping the surface.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue May 15, 2018 11:00 am

Where did I say it can't exist? :think:
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Rum » Tue May 15, 2018 11:01 am

Just to break up this little love fest - the idea of a 'multiverse' is just that - a hypothesis. There is only what one might call oblique and rather tenuous evidence that such a thing is possible. The fact is that nobody knows,

It is also certainly true that given the absolutely mind boggling size of the universe we do know for sure does exist it seems likely that life - various, weird and wonderful, strange and bizarre exists in may places. The odds would seem to favour it.

Know pick up your dummies and climb back in your prams! :hehe:

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue May 15, 2018 11:06 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:00 am
Where did I say it can't exist? :think:
And it is inventing as there's absolutely no evidence of any other universes.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue May 15, 2018 11:21 am

Is English you're fourth language? I said there's no evidence, not that it can't exist. :fp:
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue May 15, 2018 11:38 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:21 am
Is English you're fourth language? I said there's no evidence, not that it can't exist. :fp:
:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

Another one of your hobbies: splitting hairs.

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue May 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Splitting hairs? It's basic English and logic. There's no evidence of alien life. That doesn't mean that alien life can't exist. This is elementary level stuff.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 pm

You cant say there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence. That is not logical. :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored:

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 15, 2018 12:36 pm

Rum wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:01 am
Just to break up this little love fest - the idea of a 'multiverse' is just that - a hypothesis. There is only what one might call oblique and rather tenuous evidence that such a thing is possible. The fact is that nobody knows,

It is also certainly true that given the absolutely mind boggling size of the universe we do know for sure does exist it seems likely that life - various, weird and wonderful, strange and bizarre exists in may places. The odds would seem to favour it.

Know pick up your dummies and climb back in your prams! :hehe:
I would just add that the odds are completely unknown. Some things are incredibly unlikely. It may be that the odds of having life in our universe is one in the number of stars in the universe, and we happen to be the one. Since we don't have any way to gauge likelihood, we can't say that odds favor it or don't favor it.

However, that said, we see a natural process which created the solar system, the planet, and life itself on Earth - following natural laws. We see these natural laws apparently being more or less consistent throughout the universe. So, there does not seem to be any reason why there wouldn't be the same processes occurring under the same or similar circumstances in one of the many trillion solar systems around the universe.

Another however, the series of events that resulted in our planet forming just where it is, in just the way it did, with a nice stable moon, not only orbiting in the right zone, but also a host of other factors occurring just right, it seems that we have yet to find a solar system that appears to have had this same thing happen. There is not a shred of evidence yet discovered in our solar system that life occurred, even in microbial form, on other planets.

So, the jury is still out. From our perspective, though, it seems that if we were on the only planet that hit the life-lottery, the universe would be a really giant waste of space. But, of course, another caveat, calling it a waste of space contains an implicit allegation that the universe has a purpose or reason for being, or that life means something to the universe more than non-life. In an atheistic, wholly naturalistic, view of the universe, the "giant waste of space" viewpoint doesn't hold up, because our planet is just one eventuality out of hundreds of billions of possible eventualities, none of which are more important than anything else. Life is important to us because we are alive. The Universe is indifferent.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Forty Two » Tue May 15, 2018 12:41 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 pm
You cant say there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence. That is not logical. :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored:

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Well, this is the Seth argument for god.

In short: You don't know everything, therefore you can't say there is absolutely no evidence. You can say that you absolutely are not aware of anything that you consider to be evidence of the existence of such life, but you can't say that there isn't some evidence yet to be found, and you can't say that someone else doesn't have access or did not experience that evidence. Therefore you can't say there is absolutely no evidence.

Now, when someone says there is absolutely no evidence, they usually mean that we as a people, or science, has not discovered any evidence of the existence of alien life, and that the burden is on you, if you are taking the position that some evidence is there, to present it. Until you or someone else does, all we can say is that there is no evidence, and we don't believe in things for which there is no evidence. I don't think someone who says "there is no evidence of alien life" means to say that there will never be any discovered, and they don't foreclose the possibility that life might be abundant in the universe - they're just saying that we don't have the evidence....yet.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Rum » Tue May 15, 2018 1:07 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:36 pm
Rum wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:01 am
Just to break up this little love fest - the idea of a 'multiverse' is just that - a hypothesis. There is only what one might call oblique and rather tenuous evidence that such a thing is possible. The fact is that nobody knows,

It is also certainly true that given the absolutely mind boggling size of the universe we do know for sure does exist it seems likely that life - various, weird and wonderful, strange and bizarre exists in may places. The odds would seem to favour it.

Know pick up your dummies and climb back in your prams! :hehe:
I would just add that the odds are completely unknown. Some things are incredibly unlikely. It may be that the odds of having life in our universe is one in the number of stars in the universe, and we happen to be the one. Since we don't have any way to gauge likelihood, we can't say that odds favor it or don't favor it.

However, that said, we see a natural process which created the solar system, the planet, and life itself on Earth - following natural laws. We see these natural laws apparently being more or less consistent throughout the universe. So, there does not seem to be any reason why there wouldn't be the same processes occurring under the same or similar circumstances in one of the many trillion solar systems around the universe.

Another however, the series of events that resulted in our planet forming just where it is, in just the way it did, with a nice stable moon, not only orbiting in the right zone, but also a host of other factors occurring just right, it seems that we have yet to find a solar system that appears to have had this same thing happen. There is not a shred of evidence yet discovered in our solar system that life occurred, even in microbial form, on other planets.

So, the jury is still out. From our perspective, though, it seems that if we were on the only planet that hit the life-lottery, the universe would be a really giant waste of space. But, of course, another caveat, calling it a waste of space contains an implicit allegation that the universe has a purpose or reason for being, or that life means something to the universe more than non-life. In an atheistic, wholly naturalistic, view of the universe, the "giant waste of space" viewpoint doesn't hold up, because our planet is just one eventuality out of hundreds of billions of possible eventualities, none of which are more important than anything else. Life is important to us because we are alive. The Universe is indifferent.

I agree, though I think we have moved from the odds being completely impossible to estimate to a position where the odds are increasingly in favour. I say that because 1) It seems that planets are very common and may exist around most stars and 2) some of the few we have seen directly already appear to have water and some basic similarities to earth.

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue May 15, 2018 1:08 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:You cant say there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence. That is not logical. :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored: :bored:

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Are you OK?

There is no evidence. If the lack of evidence wasn't absolute, there would be evidence.

This doesn't mean there won't be evidence in the future.

Evidence is by definition what we have observed/collected/collated. It's not something that exists independent of this. What you are saying (equating "absolutely no evidence of a multiverse" with "no multiverse") literally makes no sense.

I look forward to more smiley flailing.. :hehe:
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue May 15, 2018 1:14 pm


Forty Two wrote: Now, when someone says there is absolutely no evidence, they usually mean that we as a people, or science, has not discovered any evidence of the existence of alien life,
Putting aside any semantic arguments, this is spot on. The use of "absolute" in this fashion is a common turn of phrase in English. If Scot was born from the Netherregions then it might be understandable how he couldn't know this. But he was apparently born an English man, and despite how terrible non-Dutch people are, he should know enough English to get this.

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Tue May 15, 2018 1:26 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:21 am
Is English you're fourth language? I said there's no evidence, not that it can't exist. :fp:
I hate when I do that... :sigh:
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue May 15, 2018 1:56 pm

Oxford dictionary:
Not qualified or diminished in any way; total.
‘absolute secrecy’
‘absolute silence’
Maybe in Ozland you have a different definition but Oxford says absolute is total.
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