My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby mistermack » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:07 pm

pErvinalia wrote:Eyes glazed over trying to read that paper. It's not mobile friendly, so each line is chopped to bits. I'm sure they've thought of this, but I'll point it out nonetheless.. If light moves relative to the framework of space, then that means the speed of light (in different parts of space) is not invariant. Which is of course incompatible with relativity. Not sure how they wibble their way out of that one, but I couldn't read enough to find out.

It's been widely published, and the physics commentators on the science forum described it as as good as any other way of getting to grips with general relativity, so it's not likely to be wibble.

The speed of light isn't invariant. It's invariant as measured by any observer, which isn't the same thing.
A third party can measure speeds of more than the speed of light. If I measure the closing speed of two rockets, travelling at 2/3 the speed of light head on to each other, I get a figure of more than c.
But if I'm on one of the rockets, I measure the closing speed as less than c.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby pErvinalia » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:15 pm

Measuring two rockets isn't measuring the speed of light. And the speed of light is a constant, man. It's the same at all points in the universe (except possibly behind an event horizon). But if the speed of light is considered subtractive like in this river hypothesis, then the speed of light will be different at different space flow rates. I'm sure theyve accounted for this, but I'm not sure you understand what their explanation might be.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby mistermack » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:46 pm

It's like I said, the speed of light is the same to any observer measuring it. That's because of time dilation.
At the event horizon, time grinds to a halt. Because time dilation makes it so. So anyone measuring the speed of light at the event horizon will never complete the measurement. But when they do, it will be c. :yayay:
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:00 am

Again, speed of light is a constant. If it's being measured at anything other than 3.8x10 to the power of whatever, then that means relatively is wrong. Unless you can explain this away this is the big hole in your hypothesis.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:03 am

mistermack wrote:It's like I said, the speed of light is the same to any observer measuring it. That's because of time dilation.
At the event horizon, time grinds to a halt. Because time dilation makes it so. So anyone measuring the speed of light at the event horizon will never complete the measurement. But when they do, it will be c. :yayay:
It's not being measured at the event horizon, it's being measured by us here a gazillion miles away when we point a telescope at a black hole and see no light.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby mistermack » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:53 am

pErvinalia wrote:Again, speed of light is a constant. If it's being measured at anything other than 3.8x10 to the power of whatever, then that means relatively is wrong. Unless you can explain this away this is the big hole in your hypothesis.

Not mine, the river model. And that has passed peer review and scrutiny by the best physicists out there.
But failed with some chap on Rationalia, apparently.


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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:12 am

You're the one submitting an hypothesis. Do you understand your hypothesis or not?

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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby mistermack » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:21 am

I notice that none of you points are specific. They are all vague.


Like yourself.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:34 pm

God you are a girls blouse. If you can't handle defending your ideas, then why did you put them out there?

There's nothing vague about what I've said. If light can't escape a black hole, not because of garden variety gravity, but because it is subtractive with "flowing" space, then you potentially have a situation where the speed of light is not constant across the universe. If you can't explain how this isn't the case, then you don't know enough about relativity to be positing radical "theories".
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby normal » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:45 pm

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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby mistermack » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:13 pm

pErvinalia wrote:God you are a girls blouse. If you can't handle defending your ideas, then why did you put them out there?

There's nothing vague about what I've said. If light can't escape a black hole, not because of garden variety gravity, but because it is subtractive with "flowing" space, then you potentially have a situation where the speed of light is not constant across the universe. If you can't explain how this isn't the case, then you don't know enough about relativity to be positing radical "theories".

I've already pointed you to the river model, and the part that deals with it. If you think it's wrong, get specific and say why.
But you won't, because you've demonstrated already that your understanding of GR is virtually nil.
You say "garden variety gravity" as if it's simple, not something that Einstein struggled with for years.

If only you had been there, to show him how simple it all is.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:47 pm

Twat. Just stop dissembling and address the issue. You didn't point to any part of the river model. You gave a vague assertion that "space can do whatever it likes". That's not showing any understanding of the issues involved. Forget about your authorative fallacy and show that you understand what's going on. I know far more about relativity than you, and I've shown that repeatedly by pointing out your errors in confusing inertial frames with accelerating frames. I've also had to point out to you multiple times now that the speed of light is a constant. If you can't grasp this simple fact, then you are hopelessly out of your depth.

By "garden variety gravity" I meant gravity as most of the scientific world understands it, not as MM understands it as an imaginary flowing of space (to God knows where).

Either address my critiques or take your girls blouse and crackpot "theory" and find the nearest adult colouring-in safe space.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby pErvinalia » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:00 pm

mistermack wrote:On the scienceforum thread, Strange did the calculation to compare how time dilation caused by space falling, as I'm proposing, would compare to the established gravitational time dilation formula.

He wrote "I haven't tried it but I think if you apply the Lorentz transform to the equation for escape velocity (which is the same as the speed when falling from infinity, which is your 11.186km/s) then you should end up with the equation for gravitational time dilation."

And then produced this calculation :

Image

What that shows is that IF space was whizzing past us on the surface, at 11.186km/sec, it would produce exactly the same time dilation, as we can measure due to gravity.

So you can either postulate two totally different possible types of time dilation, that just happen to produce the identical result, or that there's just one type of time dilation, which of course would naturally produce the same figures.

.


This is a great example of you not knowing the basics. Although, I'll grant that the basics of GR are pretty advanced. But you are the one who is claiming some higher level knowledge of GR.

So what have you missed here? The simple fact that no one postulates two totally different types of time dilation. Einstein pointed out about a hundred years ago that they will be indistinguishable (in the case of accelerating frames vs inertial frames in a gravitational field). It's called "the equivalence principle".
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby mistermack » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:35 pm

pErvinalia wrote:Twat.

Fuck off you dumb cunt. You're either a troll or an idiot. Either way, you're a waste of my time. Go and learn something, instead of pathetically quoting odd bits.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Postby Svartalf » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:48 pm

MM calling pErv a troll or an idiot :pot:
Seriously, who do you think you are to remake the perfection that was Newton's work?
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