"Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:21 am

Animavore wrote:
Cunt wrote:
Animavore wrote: I don't advocate punching them*. I just advocate not crying over Nazis when their free speech has consequences.


*Except in self defence.
It sounds like you support free speech for those who agree with you, but won't cry about it when someone says something TRULY awful. Like a nazi. How about Rushdie? He said things which he KNEW would get him attacked. Would you advocate not crying over those consequences?

Very soft of you to phrase it that way. It is very clear that you would not put your fist where it doesn't belong. Good for you. Glad to know you are ok with violence against speakers with whom you disagree. It helps me understand your position a bit better.

It looks like everyone here does NOT support punching Neo-Nazis for exercising their freedom of speech. Glad to know it.

It's pretty funny how a few want to make it seem like they don't quite agree though. Almost brave enough to call them keyboard warriors.
Are you comparing Rushdie to Nazis?

:bwaha:

Disingenuous as fuck.
These people really do have no fucking clue about what a "false equivalence" is. It's incredible.
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:24 am

Cunt wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Cunt wrote: It's pretty funny how a few want to make it seem like they don't quite agree though. Almost brave enough to call them keyboard warriors.
Animavore wrote:Are you comparing Rushdie to Nazis?

:bwaha:

Disingenuous as fuck.
Not sure what you mean by that word. Both are saying something which could be fairly called deliberately provocative. Both could conceivably provoke attack from the offended parties. (muslims in one case, nazi-punchers in the other)

Both are wildly different in WHAT they express. One you likely side with, one you do not. What I am pointing out is that, from what you have written here, it looks like you only support freedom of speech for the opinion which sides with yours.

Of course, it means very little, since you don't take any action. :)

I mean, you say some very brave things about 'them nazis', but my guess is that your strongest action will be hinting that you think they deserve violence for having a horrible opinion.

Almost brave enough to call you a keyboard warrior.
What do you do for the rest of the year when you aren't trolling here?? Do you have other favourite web haunts that you troll? Or do you troll in real life, and come here for a break from getting your face punched in?
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Re: Re:

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:28 am

Śiva wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Śiva wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Śiva wrote: So how many Nazis have you found and punched pErvin? Inquiring minds want to know.
None, thankfully, as they aren't as emboldened here as in the US. But if the opportunity presented itself, I would give good consideration to giving one a smack in the chops. :tup:
Eh sure. So Cunt's assumptions turned out to be correct. You're just a big talker.
I think you need remedial reading lessons. This is at least the 4th time you've misinterpreted something simple. I'm pretty sure you won't find me anywhere on this forum seriously encouraging people to punch Nazis, let alone [hyperbole alert] inciting anyone to violence [/hyperbole alert]. Man, your biases are off the charts.
:lol: That's right pErvin, take a big step back from that untenable position you find yourself in and keep that big mouth running. :lol:
You've got nothing. You always turn to empty rhetoric when you can't defend your position. You've been called out 3 times now by me. All three times you've failed to back up your empty assertions.
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Animavore » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:04 am

Cunt wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Cunt wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Cunt wrote: It's pretty funny how a few want to make it seem like they don't quite agree though. Almost brave enough to call them keyboard warriors.
Animavore wrote:Are you comparing Rushdie to Nazis?

:bwaha:

Disingenuous as fuck.
Not sure what you mean by that word. Both are saying something which could be fairly called deliberately provocative. Both could conceivably provoke attack from the offended parties. (muslims in one case, nazi-punchers in the other)

Both are wildly different in WHAT they express. One you likely side with, one you do not. What I am pointing out is that, from what you have written here, it looks like you only support freedom of speech for the opinion which sides with yours.

Of course, it means very little, since you don't take any action. :)

I mean, you say some very brave things about 'them nazis', but my guess is that your strongest action will be hinting that you think they deserve violence for having a horrible opinion.

Almost brave enough to call you a keyboard warrior.
No. I explained it clearly above. It's not that I think they deserve violence, it's that I think they shouldn't act surprised and play the victim. I have no more sympathy for them than any other person who abuses people, calls them horrible names, insults their family, then ends up getting a slap off one of them. Speech has consequences and you should be prepared to accept those consequences or say nothing.

Read what I actually say. Not what you think I'm saying.
Do you mean Rushdie? Or just the groups you despise?
Which part of abusing people and calling them horrible names and insulting families do you think describes Rushdie? I'll wait.

Act as sanctimonious as you want, but not feeling sorry for horrible little shits getting their commupence is the most human thing in the world. It is pretty much the common trope of every Disney film ever.

How about we turn this around and you tell me why I should feel sorry when a poor little Nazi comes up to me crying because he was out spreading damaging lies, and calling for genocide, of a whole race, and then got a slap off someone for his troubles? Why should I hug him and pat him on the back and say, "There. There." instead of saying, "Don't look to me. It's your own fault."
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:00 am

It's simple, Animavore. It's because that makes you worse than a Nazi. Jeez. Haven't you worked out that's there's only two types of people in the world - centrists and nazis? It's really not that complicated at all... :tea:
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Animavore » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:38 am

This talk on free speech is going to make this thread on this shady "alt left" (they're like the Illuminati or something) bypass the thread on the Neo Nazi group, repackaged and sanitised, the Alt Right. Y'know, the one that actually has leaders, websites, a newspaper (Breitbart) and self-identifying members we can point to.

Requesting free speech discussion moved to a Limitations of Free Speech thread, and Antifa discussions moved to an Antifa thread, and let's stop artificially inflating this one and creating the false equivalence the Alt Right and their sympathisers seek.

:tea:

I'm not continuing any discussion in this thread on off-topic subjects. If you need further discussion, answers, or clarification on any of my positions you'll have to wait until t he mods clean house.
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Forty Two » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:48 am

pErvin wrote:
Śiva wrote:Whatever do you mean? Are you implying some sort of bias on my part? Does this qualify as poisoning the well or an ad-hom? :ask:
It's straight out bias. Same as 42 and conservatives in general always whinging about the poor and welfare recipients, yet strangely quet about corporate welfare and massive tax avoidance. You guys aren't actually liberals. You're conservatives in (skimpy) liberal clothing.
I've never whinged about the poor and welfare recipients. My only desire for the poor and welfare recipients (largely overlapping sets) is that I hope they can become "not poor" and therefore "not welfare recipients" as soon as possible.

I've never been quiet about corporate welfare. I am very much against government subsidies to private business in general, and I've voiced that opposition consistently when the topic comes up.

I will admit that I am not opposed to tax "avoidance," but I am very much against tax "evasion."

I'm very liberal. You can prove your allegations anytime now. Find me supporting corporate welfare and tax evasion, and find me "whinging against the poor." You won't.

There was a recent thread, for example, about drug testing the poor in Australia. I'm not generally in favor of drug testing the recipients of welfare. However, I understand that there is a less than nefarious basis for it. I.e., I'm against it, but I don't assume it's some nasty motive that behind those that support such a policy.

Also, there was a thread about whether welfare should be restricted in terms of what purchases can be made with the money. Again, my point was that it's not exactly irrational to be against people using welfare money for frivolities and mind altering substances, or alcohol and cigarettes and hookers. It's like when you hand a $10 bill to a homeless guy. It's not irrational to hope the guy spends it on food, rather than Wild Irish Rose.

The problem here is that you don't read what people write, or if you do read it, you think you can "read between the lines" to what their true intent is.

You won't find me in favor of corporate welfare, but I bet dollars-to-doughnuts that you are in favor of a good chunk of it, as long as the right corporations get the subsidies.... yes?
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Forty Two » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:59 am

Animavore wrote:
Cunt wrote:
Śiva wrote:
Cunt wrote:Is anyone actually standing firmly behind the 'punch a neo-Nazi' position?
On this forum? Ani and pErvin, maybe others.
Are neo-Nazis rare and difficult to find?

I'm betting that neither can show evidence that they have made even the smallest effort to DO any punching, instead trying to incite others to do it by their written, and MAYBE spoken support. There must be a name for that kind of activism...
I don't advocate punching them*. I just advocate not crying over Nazis when their free speech has consequences.


*Except in self defence.
Which consequences?

It's easy to believe in freedom of speech for those with whom we agree. Suppressing it violates not just the right of the speaker, but of the listener to hear what is said. The suggestion that some speech is to be suppressed implies that the persons doing the suppressing have some access to greater wisdom and knowledge that the rest of us do not have. It suggests we have "betters" who keep the great unwashed in line. They know what we can and can't hear.

I read Mein Kampf at my public library when I was a teenager. I did not become a Nazi. Had it been banned, I would have found a copy, and I would have, as a young person, approached it with a different mindset - it would have been something to be taken extra-seriously, because "they" didn't want me to read it. What gold lies within the pages of a book "they" don't want you to read?
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:05 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Śiva wrote:Whatever do you mean? Are you implying some sort of bias on my part? Does this qualify as poisoning the well or an ad-hom? :ask:
It's straight out bias. Same as 42 and conservatives in general always whinging about the poor and welfare recipients, yet strangely quet about corporate welfare and massive tax avoidance. You guys aren't actually liberals. You're conservatives in (skimpy) liberal clothing.
I've never whinged about the poor and welfare recipients. My only desire for the poor and welfare recipients (largely overlapping sets) is that I hope they can become "not poor" and therefore "not welfare recipients" as soon as possible.

I've never been quiet about corporate welfare. I am very much against government subsidies to private business in general, and I've voiced that opposition consistently when the topic comes up.

I will admit that I am not opposed to tax "avoidance," but I am very much against tax "evasion."

I'm very liberal. You can prove your allegations anytime now. Find me supporting corporate welfare and tax evasion, and find me "whinging against the poor." You won't.


I would actually (and I didn't say you support corporate welfare, but you complain about the poor exponentially more than the rich, when it comes to welfare abuse), but you will never ever admit you are wrong in a debate against me. We've literally posted your own words back at you many tens of times proving you literally wrong, and it makes no difference to you. There is a serious malfunction going on at your end of the internet.

You won't find me in favor of corporate welfare, but I bet dollars-to-doughnuts that you are in favor of a good chunk of it, as long as the right corporations get the subsidies.... yes?
Well that's a new one. Normally I get wrongly accused of being a Marxist. Now I'm apparently a proto-fascist or something! :lol:
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Re:

Post by Forty Two » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:26 pm

pErvin wrote:
I would actually (and I didn't say you support corporate welfare, but you complain about the poor exponentially more than the rich, when it comes to welfare abuse),
That's your own misinterpretation or failure to read what's written. Anytime the subject comes up, I oppose corporate welfare. I don't "complain about the poor" at all, and certainly not exponentially more than the rich. Find me "complaining" about the poor, please. Or, what do you recall are my "complaints" about them?

I have rarely posted anything on "welfare abuse." When I have, it's merely to say that welfare abuse is wrong, and people should not abuse welfare. I.e., if you're not entitled to it, then don't collect it. I have, as I said, not been in favor of drug testing for welfare recipients, as I think it's largely a waste of money, but I understand why good people could be in favor of it.

More threads that I've participated in have involved discussions about corporate behavior than the behavior of poor people.

I think this is just something you've invented in your own head, trying to pigeon-hole me into some group you can then treat as evil. That's your general modus operandi. You know who the good people and the bad people are.

pErvin wrote:
but you will never ever admit you are wrong in a debate against me.
I'm sure that's not true. I will admit I'm wrong if I'm wrong. YOU however will never admit that you're wrong, even when you're shown to be wrong, not in a debate against me. I mean, will you admit you are wrong about the allegation that I'm "quiet" about corporate welfare? I'm not, and you know it. You've been involved in threads where I've railed against massive wasteful corporate welfare, and you've been in favor of it. Yet you won't admit that, will you?
pErvin wrote: We've literally posted your own words back at you many tens of times proving you literally wrong, and it makes no difference to you. There is a serious malfunction going on at your end of the internet.
I'm not going through this personal attack crap with you again. Stop projecting.

Look - what you said here, that I am quiet about corporate welfare and I "complain" about the poor is hogwash. It's complete nonsense, and you've not - and you can't - quote my words back to me on that issue. You won't admit you're wrong here, and now you want to go and make it about something else - you're off on your "posting history" and "track record" tact again -- now you're just going to smokescreen generalized allegations until this exchange gets pages long and tiresome.

The last I'm saying about this is that you're wrong about what you said here, and you know it. I did not do what you said I did.
pErvin wrote:

You won't find me in favor of corporate welfare, but I bet dollars-to-doughnuts that you are in favor of a good chunk of it, as long as the right corporations get the subsidies.... yes?
Well that's a new one. Normally I get wrongly accused of being a Marxist. Now I'm apparently a proto-fascist or something! :lol:
Where did I say that? I asked you a question. Aren't you in favor of corporate subsidies in some cases? Yes, or no?

I'm not. Are you?
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Re: Re:

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:51 pm

Forty Two wrote:You've been involved in threads where I've railed against massive wasteful corporate welfare, and you've been in favor of it. Yet you won't admit that, will you?
What in the fuck?!? :funny: Man, you must live in an entirely different universe to the rest of us. Not only would there not be a thread here were you "railed" against corporate welfare, there definitely won't be one where you find me in favour of it. You must be literally high. :lol:
pErvin wrote:

You won't find me in favor of corporate welfare, but I bet dollars-to-doughnuts that you are in favor of a good chunk of it, as long as the right corporations get the subsidies.... yes?
Well that's a new one. Normally I get wrongly accused of being a Marxist. Now I'm apparently a proto-fascist or something! :lol:
Where did I say that? I asked you a question.
You can't even understand your own words when you even quote them! :lol: You just accused me of being in favour of a large chunk of corporate welfare. You did way more than ask me a question. And no, of course I'm fucking not in favour of any corporate welfare. Haven't you read a single thing I've written on these forums over the last 6 years??
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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by laklak » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:04 pm

Would somebody please define "corporate welfare"?
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by Hermit » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:08 pm

laklak wrote:Would somebody please define "corporate welfare"?
The most obvious are government subsidies, tax concessions and loan guarantees. They're all the rage in Australia. There are others.

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Re: "Alt-left" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:16 pm

He we go for another round of denial of reality. When people grow up in conservative societies, surrounded by conservative people, with a conservative media, and they are constantly warned about welfare bludgers stealing their money, they really have no idea of the scale of welfare going to corporations. The real spastic thing about this is I've done this debate with Seth about 100 times in the past, and it always starts with denial, and then eventually after pages and pages and links and data comes the "yebbut, wealth creators!"
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Re: Re:

Post by Forty Two » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:23 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:You've been involved in threads where I've railed against massive wasteful corporate welfare, and you've been in favor of it. Yet you won't admit that, will you?
What in the fuck?!? :funny: Man, you must live in an entirely different universe to the rest of us. Not only would there not be a thread here were you "railed" against corporate welfare, there definitely won't be one where you find me in favour of it. You must be literally high. :lol:
So you were against green energy subsidies, and other such corporate welfare? You were against the bailouts in the economic crisis? You were against the stimulus package? All of that was corporate welfare.

If so, confirm that you're against them, and I'll admit that I was wrong in suggesting otherwise.

There are threads about a lot of corporate welfare - Solyndra, etc. Subsidies for solar, wind and biofuels, etc. Bailout of the financial sector. Bailout of banks. Bailout of auto companies. Etc. Etc. Etc.
pErvin wrote:
pErvin wrote:

You won't find me in favor of corporate welfare, but I bet dollars-to-doughnuts that you are in favor of a good chunk of it, as long as the right corporations get the subsidies.... yes?
Well that's a new one. Normally I get wrongly accused of being a Marxist. Now I'm apparently a proto-fascist or something! :lol:
Where did I say that? I asked you a question.
You can't even understand your own words when you even quote them! :lol: You just accused me of being in favour of a large chunk of corporate welfare.
I said I bet you would be in favor of some, and I ended the sentence with "yes?" Asking you to confirm or deny it. You haven't yet.
pErvin wrote: You did way more than ask me a question. And no, of course I'm fucking not in favour of any corporate welfare. Haven't you read a single thing I've written on these forums over the last 6 years??
Really? So, I won't find you in favor of subsidies for certain industries? I won't find you in favor of bailouts during financial crises? I won't find you in favor of stimulus packages? I won't find you in favor of things like Obamacare, which provides massive subsidies to the private insurance industry? None of that? You were opposed the whole way through? LOL, or you don't consider those things "corporate welfare?"

Lack is right - let's start by defining "corporate welfare." I'll leave that to you.
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