"Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Paper

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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:18 am

Seth wrote:[A]s I understand it, quantum entanglement means that a change in the state of one electron that is quantum entangled with another causes the other one to change to the same state. Thus, the information regarding the state of one electron must necessarily be transmitted somehow to the second electron in order for it to change state.
No, FTL information transfer is not needed in QM entangled systems, and it would break the laws of the physical universe. What entanglement allows us to do is infer something about particle B from what we know about particle A. For example, if particles A and B where created in a single quantum event, and if particle A has a property p1 then particle B will have the property ¬p1. But it is impossible to predict which particle will have which property until one of them is observed. No information has been exchanged here, each particle is always whatever it was even though there is a correlation between them.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by Seth » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:28 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Seth wrote:[A]s I understand it, quantum entanglement means that a change in the state of one electron that is quantum entangled with another causes the other one to change to the same state. Thus, the information regarding the state of one electron must necessarily be transmitted somehow to the second electron in order for it to change state.
No, FTL information transfer is not needed in QM entangled systems, and it would break the laws of the physical universe.
What "laws" are those, the ones you think you understand or the actual ones that you cannot possibly understand because humans are still too much monkey and too little intelligence?

Besides, Einstein said that the speed of light may only be a localized phenomenon.
What entanglement allows us to do is infer something about particle B from what we know about particle A. For example, if particles A and B where created in a single quantum event, and if particle A has a property p1 then particle B will have the property ¬p1. But it is impossible to predict which particle will have which property until one of them is observed. No information has been exchanged here, each particle is always whatever it was even though there is a correlation between them.
That's not what these guyssay:

We say that the c-ons are “independent” if knowledge of the state of one of them does not give useful information about the state of the other. Our first table has this property. If the first c-on (or cake) is square, we’re still in the dark about the shape of the second. Similarly, the shape of the second does not reveal anything useful about the shape of the first.

On the other hand, we say our two c-ons are entangled when information about one improves our knowledge of the other. Our second table demonstrates extreme entanglement. In that case, whenever the first c-on is circular, we know the second is circular too. And when the first c-on is square, so is the second. Knowing the shape of one, we can infer the shape of the other with certainty. (emphasis added)
Information, dude!
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by Hermit » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:29 am

Seth wrote:That's not what these guyssay:
We say that the c-ons are “independent” if knowledge of the state of one of them does not give useful information about the state of the other. Our first table has this property. If the first c-on (or cake) is square, we’re still in the dark about the shape of the second. Similarly, the shape of the second does not reveal anything useful about the shape of the first.

On the other hand, we say our two c-ons are entangled when information about one improves our knowledge of the other. Our second table demonstrates extreme entanglement. In that case, whenever the first c-on is circular, we know the second is circular too. And when the first c-on is square, so is the second. Knowing the shape of one, we can infer the shape of the other with certainty. (emphasis added)
Information, dude!
They don't say that information flows from one to the other. Here is what they do say:
c-ons are “independent” if knowledge of the state of one of them does not give useful information about the state of the other.
and
information about one improves our knowledge of the other
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:39 am

We don't need quantum wibble to support the notion of instantaneous effect at distance. Gravity is instantaneous.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by JimC » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:11 am

pErvin wrote:We don't need quantum wibble to support the notion of instantaneous effect at distance. Gravity is instantaneous.
That is seriously debatable; it is in the realm of the conflict between classical relativity and quantum mechanics. It is a useful illustration that Physics is in a state of flux...
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:13 am

How is it debatable?
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by JimC » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:19 am

The effects of gravity do not spread with zero time through the universe. Gravitational waves, recently observed via the merging of black holes, travel at the speed of light. I have seen no serious challenge to the concept that no form of matter, energy or information can travel at more than the speed of light.

The conflict between classical relativity and quantum physics, I suppose, is a separate matter, but the existence of such a deep conflict between 2 major bodies of theory, each working perfectly in their own realm, is a sign that deeper theories are required...
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:29 am

Hmmm fair enough.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by mistermack » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:07 pm

pErvin wrote:How is it debatable?
Gravity has been understood right from Einstein's General Relativity to be operating at the speed of light. That isn't really up for debate in physics. And the recent studies on Gravitational Waves confirms it anyway.

My impression of quantum entanglement is that it's like having two of Schrodinger's Cats.
They might be a billion miles apart, but they are always in the same state.
But their state only becomes dead or alive when you open the box.

It's tempting to think that you can send a message, by killing your cat. Surely the cat a billion miles away will instantly die to match it? The answer is that it does, but the people a billion miles away have no way of knowing that that's happened. Because, as soon as they look at THEIR cat, it randomly becomes either dead or alive. The act of observing it fixes it's state in a perfectly random manner. So it tells you absolutely nothing about the other cat, other than what you already know, that it's in the same state NOW.

Of course, that might be bollocks. Probably is. It's a weird world at that level.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:56 pm

mistermack wrote:
pErvin wrote:How is it debatable?
Gravity has been understood right from Einstein's General Relativity to be operating at the speed of light. That isn't really up for debate in physics.
I don't know about that. Gravity was considered a warping of space-time.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:03 pm


:dance:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by mistermack » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:05 pm

pErvin wrote:We don't need quantum wibble to support the notion of instantaneous effect at distance. Gravity is instantaneous.
pErvin wrote: I don't know about that. Gravity was considered a warping of space-time.
What's happening here is that you're confusing "constant" with "instantaneous".

We constantly experience the pull of gravity, so it feels that the effect is "instantaneous".
It is, in the sense that we experience it every instant.

It's a bit like dangling on a 100m bungee rope. You feel the pull all the time, so in that sense, it's operating on you for every instant.
But if someone gave it a huge pull from the top, there would be a time lag, before you felt the extra pull.

Gravity is constantly pulling us towards the Sun. But if the Sun suddenly doubled in mass, it would be 8 minutes before we felt it. We would see it and feel it at the same time.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:22 pm

I'm not confusing the two. If gravity is viewed as a warping of space time then the effect is instantaneous.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by mistermack » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:36 pm

pErvin wrote:I'm not confusing the two. If gravity is viewed as a warping of space time then the effect is instantaneous.
Nope. Just as the pull of the bungee rope is due to the warping or stretching of the fibres, gravity is like the stretching of spacetime.

Any change in that warping occurs at the speed of light. Just as an extra stretch in the bungee rope occurs at the speed of bungee.
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Re: "Impossible" EM Drive Has Met Peer Review In New NASA Pa

Post by Seth » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:10 pm

Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:That's not what these guyssay:
We say that the c-ons are “independent” if knowledge of the state of one of them does not give useful information about the state of the other. Our first table has this property. If the first c-on (or cake) is square, we’re still in the dark about the shape of the second. Similarly, the shape of the second does not reveal anything useful about the shape of the first.

On the other hand, we say our two c-ons are entangled when information about one improves our knowledge of the other. Our second table demonstrates extreme entanglement. In that case, whenever the first c-on is circular, we know the second is circular too. And when the first c-on is square, so is the second. Knowing the shape of one, we can infer the shape of the other with certainty. (emphasis added)
Information, dude!
They don't say that information flows from one to the other. Here is what they do say:
c-ons are “independent” if knowledge of the state of one of them does not give useful information about the state of the other.
and
information about one improves our knowledge of the other
How then do we know that they are entangled? For quantum entanglement to exist it seems to me that there must exist some relationship between the entangled atoms that entangles them and that relationship is the essence of the information required for us to have knowledge of the states of the atoms. Without any information about that relationship we cannot say that the atoms are entangled in the first place. So when particle A has a property p1 and particle B has the property ¬p1 some information must have passed at the creation of the particles to set that relationship. "Hi, I'm particle A, nice to meet you, I am a p1." "Hi, I'm particle B, nice to meet you too. Since you are a p1 I'll be a -p1."

It's been shown that predicting the orientation of one entangled electron from the position of another is not simply the random chance of observing two different particles that happen to have that relationship. It's more than that, which means there must be some connection (enganglement) between the particles that indicates their relative orientations, and that is information.
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