Infinities in science

[Aos Si]

I'm currently having a discussion (well more of an argument) with some guy who insists that the infinities that crop up in some equations, QM, thermodynamics actual exist as real infinities, assuming say that because some constant goes to infinity then there actually exists an infinite physical amount of energy. I take the position that they are limits but he's trying to tell me that an ensemble of particles could actually reach infinite temperature.

Now I know the equations say a finite amount of matter can but do you think the peculiarities of maths axiom actually mean the molecules have infinite kinetic energy or merely that at some point the temperature becomes undefined? Just like time for a photon is undefined we say it is 0 only because the maths tells us that, but common sense tells us such a thing is impossible so we in fact put it down to the peculiarity of maths axioms. So temperature at infinity cannot be measured in a system. Also of course a gradient of temperature exists so that a greater than infinite temperature would have to exist for an infinite temperature to actually be achieved. This then is more a limit than a real concern, maths is not reality.

Seriously doubt for one minute scientists think infinities like the singularity actually exist as infinities physically. Note I'm not saying they cannot be used as limits or in pure maths just that in science an infinity is actually forbidden by the law of thermodynamics. Infinite energy cannot be created in a universe because if that happened you would need more energy than there is in the universe. And what is the first law of thermodynamics?

[devogue]

I know fuck all about any of this, but isn't there some cool infinite shit in black holes or something?

(/scootles back to The Pub )

[Aos Si]

I know fuck all about any of this, but isn't there some cool infinite shit in black holes or something?

(/scootles back to The Pub )

No they just say that when you multiply infinity by infinity QM breaks down and things like the Schwarzchild metric have to be used to get rid of the paradoxes.

Basically if there are infinite points with infinite energy in an infinitesimal dimensionless point in the singularity then physics breaks and cannot be repaired. Most scientists assume there is no infinity in the singularity simply because it makes physical sense and does not break laws of nature, its easier to assume the maths is wrong or inapt than reality and its laws are broken.

[devogue]

I know fuck all about any of this, but isn't there some cool infinite shit in black holes or something?

(/scootles back to The Pub )

No they just say that when you multiply infinity by infinity QM breaks down and things like the Schwarzchild metric have to be used to get rid of the paradoxes.

So the "infinity" in a black hole should really just be "Don't know"?

[Aos Si]

I know fuck all about any of this, but isn't there some cool infinite shit in black holes or something?

(/scootles back to The Pub )

No they just say that when you multiply infinity by infinity QM breaks down and things like the Schwarzchild metric have to be used to get rid of the paradoxes.

So the "infinity" in a black hole should really just be "Don't know"?

Yeah it is undefined but most people think it is a physically measurable quantity and that having infinite gravitational force or anything is absurd.

[Aos Si]

Ok so anyone going to tell me this guys is full of shit because an entire forum is defending him to the hilt? Because he's the second coming as far as physics goes and they are all huddling round like morons defending him. I need some ammo here? I need to go back and say you are full of shit, because you know what forums are like, some guy get's rimmed enough times, then all his sycophants will gather round and lick his balls no matter how wrong he is. I've been told this guy has never been wrong about anything he is the next second coming, he is always right and I must be wrong by default; I'd love to tell him he's a cock; because there's nothing I like more than telling arrogant fucks that they can be wrong and are not perfect.

I happen to care about physics, there's not much I do care about but when some divot is just spreading misinformation, I want to say he is, otherwise a whole shed load of morons who suck balls are going to learn the wrong thing about my subject, that physical infinities exist because some dumb maths equation they can't understand says they do. Fuck me?!

Do physical infinities exist in science or are they just a consequence of maths axioms that reality can approach? Yes or no? Is he a cock or not? Can the kinetic energy of a medium actually be measured to be infinite in an experiment? Is heat actually infinite because of maths?

[Tero]

Same with Euclidian geometry. Just cause you draw an arrow on a line...

[Aos Si]

Same with Euclidian geometry. Just cause you draw an arrow on a line...

Yes but this guy has done more than that he is making a mockery of science by claiming maths is actually real and limits such as nothing and everything are actually achievable? No more than that he claims that something that is more than infinity can exist so that an infinite temperature can be achieved! And all these dummards are just lapping it up? Because he is the Kwizatz Hadderach!

Apparently just because you can draw a dumb line science is nothing more than maths. It has no reality beyond some dumb equation some dumb idiot who has never been in experimental physics, actually thinks is real world experiment. It's making a mockery of science, but if some numpty has been a on a forum long enough he must be right by default because he's always right. Is that right, that forum rep now dictates who is wrong and who is right?

[Tero]

I have this problem with kids and science. It quickly becomes meaningless when you do not have units. Or forget to put them in.

For this purpose my infinite line in Geometry is 10km long. It is just as good as infinite for most uses.

I also get these people who claim that everything is nothing because there is space inside atoms.

[Tero]

[Aos Si]

I have this problem with kids and science. It quickly becomes meaningless when you do not have units. Or forget to put them in.

For this purpose my infinite line in Geometry is 10km long. It is just as good as infinite for most uses.

I also get these people who claim that everything is nothing because there is space inside atoms.

This guys at the post doctorate stage, ie a scientist, so this is worrying. I'd perfectly happy to admit if I could not understand maths enough to the extent that I thought infinities were experimental because of what an equation throws up. However this guy is clearly so used to having his balls licked by a cohort of happy clappers, when he is wrong he will not admit it for fear this might damage his reputation. It doesn't matter that a generation of people studying this subject are going to wind up being told nonsense by this guy, to him, what matters is that he cannot be seen to be wrong. I've actually been told I must be wrong because this guy's never been wrong, and now there all just focusing on any minor errors I make in some analogies to the situation. It's fucking lame tbh, I have now been banned for two days because I told this guy he was acting like and arrogant pompous condescending ass, even though I know for a fact I am right. Wtf is up with some people?

http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sci ... rature.htm

This is no doubt a result of the idea that negative temperature on the kelvin scale (which is of course physically impossible, but is another poorly named term and is misleading) means that physically there is no upper bound on actual heat. This is definitely not true. Something can be said to have infinite temperature only because it is hotter than anything else, it still has a temperature on the K scale, and is commonly called negative, its particles still have finite kinetic energy, and if anything the term is really a misnomer because the equation throws up a singularity. This is a consequence of axiom just as time = 0 for the photon is, neither actually happen to be physically true and yet people insist they are anyway because they cannot get over the idea that maths and reality are not the same thing.

There are 2 laws of thermodynamics that make this impossible:

The upper bound limit on actual temperature is indicated at the point where all the forces unify and are not discrete, energy beyond this temperature would make no difference to the system at least hypothetically. This temperature is finite and is commonly though to be 1.416785(71)×1032kelvin although of course such a temperature is hypothetical, it conveniently is called the Planck temperature.

If this was not the case then the upper limit would be the heat of all the energy in the universe because energy cannot be created or destroyed, and because a body that is on the upper limit of how hot it can get has to be hotter than any other body by the second law of thermodynamics. Hence as I said before in practice such temperatures cannot physically be achieved, or at least infinity becomes a meaningless and useless term in an actual experiment. Yes there is no limit on the amount of energy a particle can contain, not that does not mean infinity energy is possible, or infinite temperature or that a particle can gain kinetic energy from 0 to infinity. It's just not even wrong.

[Aos Si]

Oh god this idiot is still insisting that infinite temperatures actually exist because of the maths on his graph and some magnetic bullshit, now at least someone is contending with this morons absurd stupidity, other than me.

The heat of the universe at the big bang was finite, the temperature of the universe at the big bang was finite, get over yourself you dumb schmo. To gain infinite anything by definition then would be to exceed the universes temperature at the singularity and it is fucking absurd. This breaks all the laws of thermodynamics, 0-3 its so ridiculous it's created a singularity of stupidity so paradoxical that the ripples will actually make the human race dumber for some considerable time.

Maths ≠ reality no matter how much bullshit you want to talk no quantity that is physical actually exhibits an infinity in any pictorial or physical sense (such a thing is impossible), sure the constants might exhibit one or some variable might run to one as a limit but there is most certainly not a way to measure infinite temperature no matter how much of a dumb ass you are and think there is.

The fact is negative temperatures are on the kelvin scale because they aren't infinite, even the fact that they have a numerical value defies the definition of infinite. So that when you measure it to be a precise value you have to accept the term infinity, which means that which is without bound is obviously a completely paradoxical statement about the physical system and its component parts. The only thing that is everything without bound is the universe, and this guys stupidity.

This is just basic philosophy more than it is science, the guys clearly just an idiot with some assumed badge. Its not me I worry about, it's the poor suckers this asshole is deluding that will now go away believing infinities in science are real physical entities, instead of what they actually are, conceptual limits on reality.

[AshtonBlack]

AFAIK, there is only one place where infinite temperature would be possible ie at the moment of the Big Bang and our understanding and therefore the mathematics, breaks down completely. No other infinite temperature can exist within the observable universe. But that is just my simple layman's understanding.

[Atheist-Lite]

I'm not sure I like the term infinity. Isn't discontinuity a better term? When things tend towards 'the infinite' they are actually moving towards a discontinous point on the graph. The difficulty in working out the point at which a curve is going to break means there is a element of ambiguity and this might explain why infinity as a term gathered some of its mystical taint?

[JimC]

Certainly, a finite ensemble of particles cannot contain an infinite amount of energy, or exhibit an infinite temperature.

However, when considering the universe as a whole, it is not yet possible to decide whether it is finite in terms of mass, energy or number of particles, or bounded in terms of space-time...