You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:44 pm

mistermack wrote:I can't see that the private ventures have any relevance for the colonisation of space.
I can't see any other way for it to happen. The socialist dependent class isn't going to stand for their government wasting the money they want to serve their immediate needs for government largess on pie-in-the-sky space programs that take food out of their mouths, furniture out of their rent-controlled apartments, pricey designer clothes off their backs or which interfere with their cable reception of Snookie getting drunk and showing her twat to the world.
They might be relevant to the satellite business, and the technologies that rely on it, but other than that, I can't see it going anywhere.
Giving millionaires the experience of weightlessness is a bit of fun, but where can it go from there?
Commercialization of the vast mineral and power resources found in space, of course, as you point out just below.
I would like to see a WASA, funded by the world, to go on with space research.
The huge problem is the cost of getting materials into space.
If the private sector can make an impact on that, then I would say that they have done something useful.
Good luck trying to get the barbarians in Islamic countries to agree to be taxed to support space exploration.
My own idea would be to mine the moon, as I said previously, or, build some kind of gigantic gun, that could fire raw materials into space in a capsule, into the same orbit as the space station. The space station would then capture the capsule, and uses the raw materials for assembling and manufacturing stuff in space.

The thinking behind that is that most of the cost of a space rocket lifting off from the Earth is the cost of lifting the weight of the fuel, and the weight of the huge rocket needed to contain the fuel.
If you only lift the materials you require, and nothing else, it would bring the costs down to a tiny fraction of a rocket launch. I've go no idea what kind of propulsion you could use for the gun though.
It's not "your own idea" in the least. Mining and rail-gun launches of the moon's mineral resources for use by factories in orbit was first discussed during the Golden Age of science fiction in the 1950s by luminaries such as Arthur C. Clarke, Robert Heinlein, Ted Sturgeon, Fred Pohl and a host of others, so you're just cribbing from the greats without acknowledging that it's their genius, not yours at work.

But yes, that's exactly what needs to happen, and only private industry, with it's profit incentive, will be able to do it.
It would have to be able to fire a projectile at least three hundred km in altitude, and have a final velocity of about 8 km/s.

I'd like to see the private sector have a go at that.
Want to know what the single greatest impediment to the commercialization of the moon's mineral resources is?

The United Nations.

There's this treaty, you see, that prohibits private ownership of any extraterrestrial object. All such objects are "declared to be the property of all mankind."

That's a rather large roadblock to commercialization of extraterrestrial mineral resources, from those on the moon to the asteroids or the gasses of Jupiter. No private company is going to invest the billions of dollars necessary to harvest those mineral resources if they cannot, in so doing, gain clear title to the products of their exploration and exploitation. Why would they invest money only to have the investment made worthless when "mankind" grabs what they produced for its own?

That conundrum, by the way, is precisely why America's 1892 Mining Law grants low-cost fee-title ownership to mineral resources discovered by any private person through exploration and exploitation of previously undiscovered resources. Without such title, there would be no exploration or discovery of needed mineral resources because there would be no profit potential.

Yes, this results in the transfer of ownership of public lands to private persons, but minerals are where you find them, and they must necessarily be extracted from where they are found, regardless of the impacts to the environment, which can be controlled and mitigated but not eliminated.

The same principle applies to space-based resources. Without the right of ownership, there is no point in investing money finding and extracting the resources. And since some fantasy world government space agency will never be able to get agreement on the allocation and disposition of the moon's mineral resources, and there will be endless bickering about who should benefit, its never going to be done by government either.

So, once again, socialism is the problem not the solution, and capitalism is the solution that is being hindered by socialism.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by mistermack » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:27 am

MiM wrote:Moon and March are good and well within our reach, but if we talk about reaching the stars and colonizing exoplanets, the strongest argument for me against any reasonable probability for it being possible is the Fermi paradox. If it was that easy, they would already be here.
I'm not sure about that.
The Earth is a goldilocks planet in so many ways, there are bound to be others with life, but they are likely to be incredibly far away. And intelligent life is likely to be even further away.

The numbers of planets, and the distances involved make it virtually impossible for us to travel to other planets with intelligent life. And the same must work in reverse.
But that doesn't mean that we can't colonise exoplanets that have not evolved life.
Or even some that have evolved life, but only very primitive forms. Basically all it needs is water in some form, a nearby star like the sun for energy, and a gravity of somewhere near that of the Earth.
When we are advanced enough to go there, we will certainly be advanced enough to live there.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:08 am

Seth wrote:<highly predictable crap>
So you're admitting that capitalism begins with grasping individuals helping themselves to commonly owned property without so much as a by-your-leave?
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:12 am

MiM wrote:Moon and March are good and well within our reach, but if we talk about reaching the stars and colonizing exoplanets, the strongest argument for me against any reasonable probability for it being possible is the Fermi paradox. If it was that easy, they would already be here.
Assuming their starting point is anywhere even relatively close to 'here' to begin with.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Seth » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:34 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Seth wrote:<highly predictable crap>
So you're admitting that capitalism begins with grasping individuals helping themselves to commonly owned property without so much as a by-your-leave?
If the individual inputs labor and investment in locating and extracting the "commonly owned property" (unowned property actually, since it's not been discovered and claimed by anyone) why shouldn't that vest title to that resource in the individual? Did the community do the exploration? Did it invest the money to discover and extract the resource? No, it did not. So why should the community be entitled to the profits being reaped for turning that raw resource into a salable commodity? No input of labor, no right to the fruits of that labor.

Every society needs raw natural resources, particularly including mineral resources, for the society to function and advance. Those resources cannot be manufactured or grown, they must be searched for and discovered and extracted and processed and marketed. All of this costs money and labor, and generally speaking, society is unwilling to invest the time, labor and resources from the collective public purse to do all those things. But the resources are still needed.

If a society does input public funds and labor into such discovery and exploitation, why then it is due a share of the wealth. Norway is a classic example of how this works where there are abundant natural resources that are relatively easily extracted. This is why Norway's oil companies are government-owned and the government is able to distribute the profits (created by the non-socialist free markets outside of Norway) to its citizens to better their lives.

But in most societies, governments, particularly socialist governments, are too busy trying to extract money to meet their redistributionist welfare-state dependent-class promises to invest in mineral exploration and exploitation, so the individual entrepreneur or company specializing in such tasks is left to go out and hunt for the needed resources.

They will only do so if they will personally profit from that exploration and discovery, as is right and just. They do the work, they get the fruits, and the collective gets to pay for access to the resources so discovered and exploited. Without that profit motive and individual ownership, there will be little or no exploration or exploitation and society will suffer because it does not have the mineral resources it needs to compete with the rest of the world, so it must purchase those resources on the open market, which is usually more expensive.

That's exactly the dilemma that the US faces with imported oil and the Obama administration's active obstruction and interference with the exploitation of domestic oil and gas reserves. Our gas prices are up because we have to import oil from the Middle East because the government makes it difficult or impossible (like the ban on deep drilling in the Gulf) for private industry to seek out and extract those resources.

So, that's why the individual explorer/exploiter is rightfully due the profits from unowned, unexploited natural resources that he takes the time, effort and money to discover, extract and market. Progress demands it.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:30 am

Seth wrote:...unowned property actually, since it's not been discovered and claimed by anyone...
Why should your narrow, self-serving, capitalistic definitions of 'discovered' and 'claimed' be held sacred by everyone?

As for the rest of your post, if entitlement to property (according to you) derives from being willing and able to invest in exploiting the resources present, then what about private individuals who happen to be currently in possession of property but who have either chosen or are unable to exploit it's resources? Are they in forfeit of their rights? Can they have their property simply taken away from them by someone who is willing/able?
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by mistermack » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:23 am

I still think that faster-than-light travel will turn out to be possible for information.
Not information carried by light, or electrical signals, or particles.
But information that can be put into and retrieved from other dimensions.

The evidence and argument for more dimensions gets stronger all the time.
There is no reason that the speed of light should apply in other dimensions.

Imagine a water creature that is blind, but has fantastic hearing and sonar. It is totally governed by the speed of sound in water. It might even think that it is impossible for information to go any faster.
Until it found some way of detecting light, that would be fair enough.

We might be in exactly the same situation. It might be possible for us to load information into another dimension, and for someone ten billion light years away to read it instantly. We have no way of knowing.

The argument about time travel being possible, if faster-than-light info is possible, must have a flaw.
But as I don't understand that argument, I've got no chance of pointing out the flaw.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Seth » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:21 pm

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
Seth wrote:...unowned property actually, since it's not been discovered and claimed by anyone...
Why should your narrow, self-serving, capitalistic definitions of 'discovered' and 'claimed' be held sacred by everyone?
Because little or nothing will be discovered and produced without it, and it's only fair that those who labor to discover and extract a mineral resource get to enjoy the full fruits of their labor. Why should those who have input no labor or investment into the process be permitted to benefit from the labor of others for free? What gives the seething proletarian masses "rights" to resources they have done nothing to find, extract, process or market? Why should their mere existence entitle them to anything at all?
As for the rest of your post, if entitlement to property (according to you) derives from being willing and able to invest in exploiting the resources present, then what about private individuals who happen to be currently in possession of property but who have either chosen or are unable to exploit it's resources? Are they in forfeit of their rights? Can they have their property simply taken away from them by someone who is willing/able?
Good question. It would depend, I suppose, on the societal necessity for exploiting that resource. Let's take oil as an example. A person sitting on an oil field who discovered, but is not exploiting it may be sitting on it in order to enhance his return on investment over time as market prices rise. That's a valid right of ownership that would not trigger any recision of ownership. On the other hand, if there suddenly appears a critical need on the part of society for that resource, such as a war, and the owner refuses to extract the resource, then the government, using the right of eminent domain, can forcibly acquire the resource, but must pay the owner its then-current fair market value as just compensation for the taking.

The US Constitution explicitly provides this authority to government, which it may exercise pretty much at will so long as the taking is for a public use (which unfortunately has been radically expanded by the SCOTUS to mean "public purpose" not actual public use or occupancy, which is what the Founders intended) so long as it provides "just compensation" in return.

As between individuals however, no, there are only a few circumstances under which ownership of property of any sort may be stripped from the lawful owner and given to another private person lawfully. Primarily this means transfer of title through adverse possession, which means that a person not the lawful owner of property must physically occupy the land or possess the property in "open, hostile and notorious" physical possession for a statutory period that varies from a few months to 20 years or more, and the true owner must make NO objection to that occupancy during that time period. Under such circumstances, a court may vest title in the adverse possessor. The purpose of this principle is to settle title primarily to real estate where there may be boundary line ambiguities or inadvertent trespass, such as a building or fence built in the wrong place on a neighbor's property. It's a process to settle claims and prevent disorder and squabbles over title to lands.

But merely refusing to exploit a discovered resource is not sufficient cause to strip ownership from the discoverer in whom title has been vested by law.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by MiM » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:08 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
MiM wrote:Moon and March are good and well within our reach, but if we talk about reaching the stars and colonizing exoplanets, the strongest argument for me against any reasonable probability for it being possible is the Fermi paradox. If it was that easy, they would already be here.
Assuming their starting point is anywhere even relatively close to 'here' to begin with.
Anywhere in our galaxy would be close enough

""Why are no aliens or their artifacts physically here?" If interstellar travel is possible, even the "slow" kind nearly within the reach of Earth technology, then it would only take from 5 million to 50 million years to colonize the galaxy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
. A quick look at that wikipedia page gives me the feeling it is not as good as before. There is a lot of text there, but nowhere did I find an explanation of the exponential growth theory, that Fermi based his question on.
Last edited by MiM on Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:11 am

MiM wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
MiM wrote:Moon and March are good and well within our reach, but if we talk about reaching the stars and colonizing exoplanets, the strongest argument for me against any reasonable probability for it being possible is the Fermi paradox. If it was that easy, they would already be here.
Assuming their starting point is anywhere even relatively close to 'here' to begin with.
Within our galaxy would be enough

""Why are no aliens or their artifacts physically here?" If interstellar travel is possible, even the "slow" kind nearly within the reach of Earth technology, then it would only take from 5 million to 50 million years to colonize the galaxy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
5 million to 50 million in whose reference frame? :tea:
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Clinton Huxley » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:31 am

We just have to face the fact that we Ratz may be the "brightest and best" that the Universe has so far produced.....
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by JimC » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:32 am

Clinton Huxley wrote:We just have to face the fact that we Ratz may be the "brightest and best" that the Universe has so far produced.....
Oh shit...
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Clinton Huxley » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:37 am

JimC wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:We just have to face the fact that we Ratz may be the "brightest and best" that the Universe has so far produced.....
Oh shit...
4.5 billion years to produce a creature that just wants to sit on its bum and eat bacon-flavoured cheese and cheese-flavoured bacon.....
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by mistermack » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:29 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:
JimC wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:We just have to face the fact that we Ratz may be the "brightest and best" that the Universe has so far produced.....
Oh shit...
4.5 billion years to produce a creature that just wants to sit on its bum and eat bacon-flavoured cheese and cheese-flavoured bacon.....
I like cheesy peas. If you like cheese, and also like peas, you're sure to like cheesy peas.
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Re: You can't travel faster than light after all - phew!

Post by Clinton Huxley » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:32 pm

I bet the Earth has the universe's only stock of cheesy peas...
"I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"

AND MERRY XMAS TO ONE AND All!

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