NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post Reply
User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by mistermack » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:00 am

Pappa wrote:There's a couple of NS articles about beaming power from space here:
Pentagon backs plan to beam solar power from space
California gives green light to space solar power

It's still early days and would cost a lot more that a billion dollars, but I think the billion would be money well spent.
They don't mention what kind of energy beam. The second one seems to be from a dream world. They signed a contract to buy electricity in 2016, knowing full well there will be none in 2016 to buy. It's just for show.

The critical problem is what kind of beam, and has it ever been used small-scale.
And how big and heavy is the beam-producing machinery.
I'd be very surprised if any of this was in use in 2036, let alone 2016.

It doesn't seem that the elevator idea is being taken any more seriously really.
The tether is the problem. It's a problem of weight versus strength, and I don't think they are within a factor of 100 of achieving a viable material.
And when they do, will it be cheap enough?
The nearest is carbon nano-tube technology, which is by far the strongest known, and nowhere near strong enough (yet).
And there is no known solution for passing safely through the Van-Allen belt yet, apart from rocket type speeds, which wouldn't be achievable with an elevator.
But even if you couldn't carry humans, an elevator would still be a huge advantage for lifting hardware.

It's odd that the Universe is absolutely bursting with wasted energy, but it's nearly all just out of our reach. In two or three hundred years, I reckon we will have vast amounts of energy for practically nothing, and robots that can work in any environment.
There must be alien civilizations out there that went through this stage thousands or hundreds of thousands of years ago. What are they up to now?

I think I was born three hundred years too early.
.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56488
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Pappa » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:18 am

mistermack wrote:They don't mention what kind of energy beam. The second one seems to be from a dream world. They signed a contract to buy electricity in 2016, knowing full well there will be none in 2016 to buy. It's just for show.

The critical problem is what kind of beam, and has it ever been used small-scale.
And how big and heavy is the beam-producing machinery.
I'd be very surprised if any of this was in use in 2036, let alone 2016.
From the first link:
Space-based solar power would use kilometre-sized solar panel arrays to gather sunlight in orbit. It would then beam power down to Earth in the form of microwaves or a laser, which would be collected in antennas on the ground and then converted to electricity.
Several technical challenges remain to be overcome, including the development of lower-cost space launches. A satellite capable of supplying the same amount of electric power as a modern fossil-fuel plant would have a mass of about 3000 tonnes - more than 10 times that of the International Space Station. Sending that material into orbit would require more than a hundred rocket launches. The US currently launches fewer than 15 rockets each year.

In spite of these challenges, the NSSO and its supporters say that no fundamental scientific breakthroughs are necessary to proceed with the idea and that space-based solar power will be practical in the next few decades.

"There are no technology hurdles that are show stoppers right now," said Damphousse.
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.


When the aliens do come, everything we once thought was cool will then make us ashamed.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:42 am

Pappa, have you considered combining the space based solar collectors with the space elevator? The power is beamed to receivers at the top of the elevator, and conducted to the ground via cables, which help support and anchor the elevator. Loss-less transmission from the collectors to the receivers in space, safe conduction through the atmosphere with the cables.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56488
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Pappa » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:32 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:Pappa, have you considered combining the space based solar collectors with the space elevator? The power is beamed to receivers at the top of the elevator, and conducted to the ground via cables, which help support and anchor the elevator. Loss-less transmission from the collectors to the receivers in space, safe conduction through the atmosphere with the cables.
They would need to be made of an electrical conductor.... likely way to heavy to support their own weight.
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.


When the aliens do come, everything we once thought was cool will then make us ashamed.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:45 pm

Pappa wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Pappa, have you considered combining the space based solar collectors with the space elevator? The power is beamed to receivers at the top of the elevator, and conducted to the ground via cables, which help support and anchor the elevator. Loss-less transmission from the collectors to the receivers in space, safe conduction through the atmosphere with the cables.
They would need to be made of an electrical conductor.... likely way to heavy to support their own weight.
Or fibre optic cables. And isn't the point of the space elevator that it doesn't support its own weight, the centrifugal force keeps it in position?
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

PsychoSerenity
"I" Self-Perceive Recursively
Posts: 7824
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 am
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by PsychoSerenity » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:54 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Pappa wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Pappa, have you considered combining the space based solar collectors with the space elevator? The power is beamed to receivers at the top of the elevator, and conducted to the ground via cables, which help support and anchor the elevator. Loss-less transmission from the collectors to the receivers in space, safe conduction through the atmosphere with the cables.
They would need to be made of an electrical conductor.... likely way to heavy to support their own weight.
Or fibre optic cables. And isn't the point of the space elevator that it doesn't support its own weight, the centrifugal force keeps it in position?
Yeah but the cable for the elevator needs a really high tensile strength because it's so long. Last I heard they were looking at composites with carbon nano-tubes that were almost strong enough for what is theoretically needed - but not there yet.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:56 pm

One billion is a tight budget for moon bases and probably too low for any cool manned mission beyond what we already do.

I would say placing a telescope at a LaGrange point would be awesome, and Rum's suggestion of a space elevator is awesome too. Either one of those.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:25 pm

Psychoserenity wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Pappa wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Pappa, have you considered combining the space based solar collectors with the space elevator? The power is beamed to receivers at the top of the elevator, and conducted to the ground via cables, which help support and anchor the elevator. Loss-less transmission from the collectors to the receivers in space, safe conduction through the atmosphere with the cables.
They would need to be made of an electrical conductor.... likely way to heavy to support their own weight.
Or fibre optic cables. And isn't the point of the space elevator that it doesn't support its own weight, the centrifugal force keeps it in position?
Yeah but the cable for the elevator needs a really high tensile strength because it's so long. Last I heard they were looking at composites with carbon nano-tubes that were almost strong enough for what is theoretically needed - but not there yet.
But do the power cables have to do all that job, or can they ride-along or do part of the job?
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56488
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Pappa » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:52 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Psychoserenity wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Pappa wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Pappa, have you considered combining the space based solar collectors with the space elevator? The power is beamed to receivers at the top of the elevator, and conducted to the ground via cables, which help support and anchor the elevator. Loss-less transmission from the collectors to the receivers in space, safe conduction through the atmosphere with the cables.
They would need to be made of an electrical conductor.... likely way to heavy to support their own weight.
Or fibre optic cables. And isn't the point of the space elevator that it doesn't support its own weight, the centrifugal force keeps it in position?
Yeah but the cable for the elevator needs a really high tensile strength because it's so long. Last I heard they were looking at composites with carbon nano-tubes that were almost strong enough for what is theoretically needed - but not there yet.
But do the power cables have to do all that job, or can they ride-along or do part of the job?
The carbon nano-tubes being developed are nowhere near strong enough to support their own weight, let alone some conductive cables attached too. Power cables would likely be impossible because the weight a conductive cable dangling from orbit would always be to much for itself to support.
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.


When the aliens do come, everything we once thought was cool will then make us ashamed.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:57 pm

Pappa wrote:The carbon nano-tubes being developed are nowhere near strong enough to support their own weight, let alone some conductive cables attached too. Power cables would likely be impossible because the weight a conductive cable dangling from orbit would always be to much for itself to support.
Pappa, they could be laid down the elevator trunk, on the outside. The trunk supports them. If we use the same system for elevators and receivers, but on different locations, there shouldn't be any reason why the trunks couldn't support the cables.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56488
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Pappa » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:13 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Pappa wrote:The carbon nano-tubes being developed are nowhere near strong enough to support their own weight, let alone some conductive cables attached too. Power cables would likely be impossible because the weight a conductive cable dangling from orbit would always be to much for itself to support.
Pappa, they could be laid down the elevator trunk, on the outside. The trunk supports them. If we use the same system for elevators and receivers, but on different locations, there shouldn't be any reason why the trunks couldn't support the cables.
I think a space elevator is just a cable really, not an elevator shaft.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:21 pm

Pappa wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Pappa wrote:The carbon nano-tubes being developed are nowhere near strong enough to support their own weight, let alone some conductive cables attached too. Power cables would likely be impossible because the weight a conductive cable dangling from orbit would always be to much for itself to support.
Pappa, they could be laid down the elevator trunk, on the outside. The trunk supports them. If we use the same system for elevators and receivers, but on different locations, there shouldn't be any reason why the trunks couldn't support the cables.
I think a space elevator is just a cable really, not an elevator shaft.
Minor detail. The cable has to handle the load on the far end as well as the strains along it. So using the same system to deliver power from receivers in space isn't even an engineering issue there, it's repurposing the existing design.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56488
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Pappa » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:28 pm

Gawdzilla wrote: Minor detail. The cable has to handle the load on the far end as well as the strains along it. So using the same system to deliver power from receivers in space isn't even an engineering issue there, it's repurposing the existing design.
The technology exists to beam the power from space, it doesn't exist to send it via conductive cable. Even if it did, there's no guarantee it would be more eficient. Plus, space elevators require a counterweight that is significantly more massive than the proposed solar energy collectors. Each and every one would need it's own counterweight. That would be hugely expensive, even more so than the already huge expense that the satelite solar collectors are likely to cost.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:32 pm

Pappa wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote: Minor detail. The cable has to handle the load on the far end as well as the strains along it. So using the same system to deliver power from receivers in space isn't even an engineering issue there, it's repurposing the existing design.
The technology exists to beam the power from space, it doesn't exist to send it via conductive cable. Even if it did, there's no guarantee it would be more eficient. Plus, space elevators require a counterweight that is significantly more massive than the proposed solar energy collectors. Each and every one would need it's own counterweight. That would be hugely expensive, even more so than the already huge expense that the satelite solar collectors are likely to cost.
Okay, we missed a step here. The solar collectors are not on top of the elevator, they're beaming energy to the receiver on the elevator. The energy is conducted to the surface by either wire cables or some other system. You don't lose energy punching through the atmosphere, and the associated heating of the atmosphere is eliminated.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

PsychoSerenity
"I" Self-Perceive Recursively
Posts: 7824
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 am
Contact:

Re: NASA Mission: YOU Decide....

Post by PsychoSerenity » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:50 pm

Pappa wrote:The carbon nano-tubes being developed are nowhere near strong enough to support their own weight, let alone some conductive cables attached too. Power cables would likely be impossible because the weight a conductive cable dangling from orbit would always be to much for itself to support.
You're right, I just looked it up on wiki, it seems to be a lot further off than I thought.
Gawdzilla wrote:Okay, we missed a step here. The solar collectors are not on top of the elevator, they're beaming energy to the receiver on the elevator. The energy is conducted to the surface by either wire cables or some other system. You don't lose energy punching through the atmosphere, and the associated heating of the atmosphere is eliminated.
I think the point is, we already have the technology for the solar collectors, but the space elevator still seems quite a way off. If and when we are able to create materials with the strength to support more than it's own weight in a space elevator structure, then I'm sure it would be put to other uses too. But we could make the solar collectors now.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests