Bitcoin & the crypto-currency revolution. (get some here).

[Tyrannical]

You could put solar array in the Arizona desert attached to bitcoin miners and instead of trying to ship that electricity all over world, you could ship Bitcoin all over the world.

I find that shocking and disgustingly wasteful. I see it as nothing more than a waste of real resources to create virtual resources.

[Azathoth]

What distros you using? Derail tiem

They're both crap bro. Ubuntu 12.04 LTS with that poxy new KDE desktop and no multimedia codecs & the other one is Netrunner (something) with numerous config problems which I have yet to sort out. I installed on a new drive a few months back now and never got things properly sorted. I need a week or so just on planning partitioning and re-installing a good system for day to day work & play.
I'm enjoying my android phone more than anything these days.

Give arch a shot. Best distro ever. FACT!

Oh! yeah... I think I have a recent cover disk with a distro of arch on it here somewhere. That has more configarable back end stuff if I recall, and less futsy/glam GUI gimmiks. Thanks Az. I'll wack it on a virtual machine and take it for a spin first and if it's as good as you say I'll put it into my partition and install plan.

Arch is what you make of it. The wiki is your friend.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners'_Guide

[Skepticus]

What backs bitcoins with tangible value? Artificially created scarcity of a virtual item is no basis for a currency.

What backs a £10 note with tangible value? It is after all just an IOU.

I've no idea what backs up a £10 note,

It's backed by lies deception, and crippling debt, that has more layers than an onion and is impossible to work our way out of, because the whole fiat system is unsustainable. Without debt the fiat economy collapses. Each layer of debt must be attended by interest charges, that are not created with the capital that is borrowed into existance, so like an onion the new layer has to be larger to wrap around and cover the existing debt. We need to borrow more to spend and consume more to dirve the economy further into debt, in order to pay out existing obligations of debt + intrest. That is what our fiat dollars are based on, and it cant be done this way; not forever.

but US currency is backed up by the full faith and power of it's military might.

Thats right, because MIGHT is RIGHT gawddamnit! and if'n ya dont believe me I'm gona come over there and kick you in the nuts.

If its good enough for primative barbarians and their bronze age gods, it's good enough for me. Why shouldn't we just plunder the world with an unfair stranglehold on global finance and make the poorest 95% of the world population, eek out an existence on less than 25% of the wealth? Why not spend squillions on the arsenal to cripple the underdog and live high on the hog? Take what ever we can I say and crush any of those punny vermin pessants that dare to get in our way!

But wait... Unless you're a high level politician, on the board of Goldman Sachs, or some very similar level of' prestige and wealth', you aint invited to the plunderin party. No.. you'd be one of the 95% sharin in the 25% of wealth* and being looted and plundered. You'd be one of the vermin pesants that will be crushed.

Bit coin has nothing..

With all due respects ol matey, I don't actualy think you can say you know that, or that you understand the economics of either bitcoin or money in general, well enough to make that call Even the philosophical question of how anything derives value (one that interests me) is a subtle and perplexing area of study. Not to poor cold water on your head, but you don't strilke me as having the background or insight to make that call. Just sayin is all.

...and is required to follow the sovereign laws of what ever country it operates in.

How can a piece of software or a network protocol, follow laws (other than laws of nature)? What does a mathematical algorhythm know about sovereignty? Those are the very concepts that bitcoin was devised to circumvent. A free market can't opperate with demigouges and filthy greedy pilferers in charge of the money supply. Sovereignty is a horrible imperialist idea, that undermines everything that is good about freemarket economics, not the least of which is that it follows natural laws and allows the market to find it's own 'natural' ballances. The imperialist sovereignty tainting the fiat currency you now use, is screwwing YOU over NOW. And that millitary might which comes out of your pocket, can be just as effective to keep you in line as the vermin pessants you may be happy to see your government loot and pillage from.

Seriously, if you think bit coin is a good idea just buy gold instead.

You're trying to give ME advice? Seriously, If YOU think gold is good, just wait till you learn a little about bitcoin.

* NB: Don't quote me on exact figures here, this is a rhetorical point that represents the egregious disparity in wealth.

[Skepticus]

You could put solar array in the Arizona desert attached to bitcoin miners and instead of trying to ship that electricity all over world, you could ship Bitcoin all over the world.

I find that shocking and disgustingly wasteful. I see it as nothing more than a waste of real resources to create virtual resources.

Well I'm afraid well have to agree to differ then Tyrannical. Thanks for your input though.

[colubridae]

Farsight.... is that you?

[Skepticus]

Farsight.... is that you?

Hi colubridae.

Farsight?!!

Some people say I have forsight. When I was born without eylids, they circumsised me and used the extra skin to make eylids. That not only explains my foresight, but why I'm a bit cockeyed.

[Tyrannical]

You could put solar array in the Arizona desert attached to bitcoin miners and instead of trying to ship that electricity all over world, you could ship Bitcoin all over the world.

I find that shocking and disgustingly wasteful. I see it as nothing more than a waste of real resources to create virtual resources.

Well I'm afraid well have to agree to differ then Tyrannical. Thanks for your input though.

Yeah, it's pretty apparent we see this in very different ways. One a little too optimistic, the other probably too pessimistic. I understand what bit coins is trying to do, to create an artificialy rare commodity that requires a different type of effort than traditional mining. I just don't think it is a good idea for various reasons.

[mistermack]

List of Bitcoin thefts and scams

It's a long list.
Note in particular the one at the end, headed '' Pirate default '' in which an amazing 5% of ALL bitcoins apparently went missing.
The victims have been offered '' sympathy ''.

Of course, the thing is wide open to an inside job, and someone can get very very rich, so long as the price stays up.

[Skepticus]

You could put solar array in the Arizona desert attached to bitcoin miners and instead of trying to ship that electricity all over world, you could ship Bitcoin all over the world.

I find that shocking and disgustingly wasteful. I see it as nothing more than a waste of real resources to create virtual resources.

Well I'm afraid well have to agree to differ then Tyrannical. Thanks for your input though.

Yeah, it's pretty apparent we see this in very different ways. One a little too optimistic, the other probably too pessimistic. I understand what bit coins is trying to do, to create an artificialy rare commodity that requires a different type of effort than traditional mining. I just don't think it is a good idea for various reasons.

How about the libertarian aspect? Did you get to look at that video Money As Debt... The first one?

It realy does seem that our money system is doomed and we are forced to plunder the resources of the planet, so that we can fuel escalating economic growth, all because banks create money as debt and ONLY the capital we borrow is created, not the intrest. SO we have to expand the money suppy to payback, the intrest and that requires more debt. The banks have us by the balls and they OWN the whole monitary system, not governments. It's ridiculous.

However wasteful bitcoin mining may seem, it does incentivise R&D to make ever more economical hardware and could (and probably will) fuel new R&D in solar and other alternative energy. You have to take into account that as the value of bitcoin grows, the ratio of production cost to market value increases dramaticly. Also the total 21 million BTC only ever have to be mined once. They are from then on, perpetualy recycled. As the availabel supply of bitcoin yet to be mined diminishes, there will need to be increasing efficiency to make the residual coinage worth extracting. So you see, there will be an inevitable market driven value growth to scales of efficiency. There already IS.

That value proposition is good for all green technology. It could even (I think it will) drive up the price of newer more efficient solar panel or hydrogen technologies and incentivise the R&D then to open new markets for that new technology. That's where bitcoin gets to give it all back. While bitcoin minning may only be a tiny fraction of 1% of the whole energy economy, bitcoin may be growing to 1 - 5 - 10% - or who knows howmuch of total the economic market. Now that makes each of those bitcoin worth hundreds of times more than the cost of the electricity used to mine them. That money will be recyclable indeffinatly and fund the nacent green technology market. That is something I am almost certain about, because I have been working on this angle myself. Those newer ways of getting green energy, wont just be sold to people trying to mine bitcoin more efficiently with cheaper hardware, but it wil also be available for everybody to make more green energy for less cost. I think we need to look at the big picture a bit more carefully. Let's not throw the environmental baby out with the economic bath water.

[MrFungus420]

The pizza-delivery boy just showed up.

What good are bit-coins?

Hi MrFungus,

Well clearly they will be of no use to somebody who doesn't yet accept them.

So, of no use.

You might have to pay in fiat cash this time but... (if you have a smart phone) go to the door and ask "do you accept bitcoin?" and he will probably say: "what's bitcoin?" and you just show him on your smartphone the bitcoin wallet app and tell him how you can send bitcoins from one person to another without any middle man or bank fees.

Why would he care? He wants money that he can spend.

If he is keen to try it out

He won't be.

He needs the money for the pizza (otherwise he has to pay for it) and money for a tip.

and has a smartphone too, he might just download and install a wallet app on the spot. Otherwise tell him to check it out and promise to tip him well if he comes back next time accepting bitcoin.

Yeah, "I'll give you a good tip next time" means a whole lot to a delivery driver. Especially when that promised tip is not going to be money.

Ask for a number you can TXT him on to send your next order.

No driver wants customers getting in touch with them on their personal phone to place orders. It's a job that doesn't pay much, so many drivers have limited minutes and texts. Also, drivers don't get to pick their deliveries.

He may have special benifits like free pizzas (sometimes they get made with wrong toppings or dilivered to wrong adresses) that are unwanted for some reason. You might be able to hook up pizzas for half price or less, if you are not fussy about the topings etc. With bitcoin you don't need management to be involved. If the guy wants to pick up some bitcoin himself, then he has the perfect job to do it.

]

Wow, you really are completely clueless. Delivery drivers don't get to do that. As a mater of fact, a delivery driver doing ANYTHING like that to make extra money would be rightly fired.

On the other hand. If you talk to your local pizza delivery shop manager, they might be very interested in supporting bitcoin.

Again, why would they be?

You're talking about something that is practically useless. Unless the people that are paying them AND the people that they are paying are all using bitcoins, they're useless.

Apart from the usual exorbitant bank fees they pay on transactions, their guys usualy have to carry very expensive rental POS machines to accept creditcard transactions.

Which is more exorbitant, fees or being given a virtually worthless substitute for money that can't be used for paying bills, can't be used for paying taxes, and can't be used for paying employees?

Usualy a merchant will just want a small number of bitcoin customers at first, to save a litle bitcoin each week, but once they learn to exchange online for fiat, then they may even put up the We Accept Bitcoin Here sign.

Nonsense.

No business wants to have to deal with exchange rates on everyday transactions. Especially exchange rates that are changing so fast that what was worth about $10 three years ago is now worth $1,300,000 (according to you).

I guess this means that everyone that had $10 worth of bitcoins 3 years ago is now a millionaire, right?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

You could put solar array in the Arizona desert attached to bitcoin miners and instead of trying to ship that electricity all over world, you could ship Bitcoin all over the world.

I find that shocking and disgustingly wasteful. I see it as nothing more than a waste of real resources to create virtual resources.

You could say exactly the same thing about minting coinage, or printing bills.

[pErvinalia]

A couple of questions...

Say a bunch of people get into bitcoin, start trading and conducting commerce etc. Then another competitor to bitcoin booms. Then another one. Wouldn't the value of our original bitcoins go down for purchasing real world services and items? This is sort of my second question too: How (or is it possible) to convert bitcoin to dollars?

As an aside, I'm reminded of some interesting ideas that have floated around for years concerning "local" currencies. That is, currencies that only retain value if they are spent in a local area. That way money stays within the particular communities.

[pErvinalia]

What backs bitcoins with tangible value? Artificially created scarcity of a virtual item is no basis for a currency.

What backs a £10 note with tangible value? It is after all just an IOU.

I've no idea what backs up a £10 note,

It's backed by lies deception, and crippling debt, that has more layers than an onion and is impossible to work our way out of, because the whole fiat system is unsustainable. Without debt the fiat economy collapses. Each layer of debt must be attended by interest charges, that are not created with the capital that is borrowed into existance, so like an onion the new layer has to be larger to wrap around and cover the existing debt. We need to borrow more to spend and consume more to dirve the economy further into debt, in order to pay out existing obligations of debt + intrest. That is what our fiat dollars are based on, and it cant be done this way; not forever.

Fiat money isn't based on nothing. All new money created is accounted for and the cost of that new money is inflation. There's no magic going on. The downside to this model is that if you sit on your money it devalues over time. But this is good thing in the sense of how our economies operate, in that it encourages people to invest money (i.e. drives economic growth). And as long as economic growth outpaces inflation, then no one on average has lost. The big problem with this model, of course, is the requirement for never ending growth. It's debatable whether that is even possible. It's highly unlikely it will be possible.

...and is required to follow the sovereign laws of what ever country it operates in.

How can a piece of software or a network protocol, follow laws (other than laws of nature)? What does a mathematical algorhythm know about sovereignty?

Governments can easily restrict certain internet activities. They could also legislate that it is illegal for a business to accept bitcoin.

[Skepticus]

Why would he care? He wants money that he can spend.

A) What's wrong with spending bitcoin? I've spent plenty of it. More than I wish I had as a mater of fact.

B) How do you know he only wants money to spend. He might want to save some. In which case bitcoin is great due to it's deflationary nature.

If he is keen to try it out

He won't be.

How do you know? Are we talking about a hypothetical pizza guy. Did you ask?

He needs the money for the pizza (otherwise he has to pay for it) and money for a tip.

If he decides he likes the idea of bitcoin, then he has the opportunity to spend out of his own pocket. If you have bitcoin to pay for the pizza, you pay him BTC and he takes his cash back to the shop. People already meet in person to do local bitcoin trading person to person. It's an ideal gig for a delivery person.

and has a smartphone too, he might just download and install a wallet app on the spot. Otherwise tell him to check it out and promise to tip him well if he comes back next time accepting bitcoin.

Yeah, "I'll give you a good tip next time" means a whole lot to a delivery driver. Especially when that promised tip is not going to be money.

Bitcoin IS money to those that accept it as money. Your argument that it isn't money to another person is begging the question. If you don't accept that it is money and refuse to use it then nobody is forcing you to (unlike fiat)

Why don't you just ignore it then and not bother with objecting to those who do or would like to accept it as money?

Ask for a number you can TXT him on to send your next order.

No driver wants customers getting in touch with them on their personal phone to place orders

.

Again! Not your decision. Again! You're simply begging the question. Look if you want nothing to do with bitcoin just leave it alone. It's non up to you what others want or do.

On the other hand. If you talk to your local pizza delivery shop manager, they might be very interested in supporting bitcoin.

Again, why would they be?

For the same reasons that I have detailed above. Did you read? For the same reasons that bussiness already DO accept bitcoin and are doing so in ever increasing numbers. Because it's an excellent currency and because they understand the economics. That people are using bitcoin as as money is a FACT, whether you like it or not.

You're talking about something that is practically useless.

NO I'm sorry but I happen to know otherwise. I can buy plenty of stuff with bitcoin and as it happens I DO, but I much rather try to accumulate it because I understand why the value is rising Like 100% every 8 months (aprox). When you do some research and learn to talk out of an orifice that isn't so brown and puckered, you can come tell me all about what bitcoin is or isn't useful for. It's use for many people is abundant. Many are passionate to find an alternative to the corrupt and doomed fiat money system we have been stuck with and bitcoin is a brilliant solution. But again, feel free not to participate.

Unless the people that are paying them AND the people that they are paying are all using bitcoins, they're useless.

This is like having a 'discussion' with a creatard. HELLO! HELLO! Anybody in there? People DO accept bitcoin. People DO spend bitcoin. People DO improve their business models by accepting bitcoin and People DO save overheads by avoiding costly bank transaction & POS fees. People can and DO convert fiat money to and from bitcoin at very economical rates. People DO make excellent use of bitcoin.

Apart from the usual exorbitant bank fees they pay on transactions, their guys usualy have to carry very expensive rental POS machines to accept creditcard transactions.

Which is more exorbitant, fees or being given a virtually worthless substitute for money that can't be used for paying bills, can't be used for paying taxes, and can't be used for paying employees?

Why don't you go ask the businesses that actually DO accept bitcoin why they do? It's because it's MUCH more economical to accept small transaction without POS/transaction fees. Some are saving 50% of overheads thanks to bitcoin. If they get more bitcoin than they can use (most cant get enough), they can always trade it back for fiat in lump sum, at an on line exchange or OTC. It's not hard to find people who want bitcoin. That's why the price has gone 0 to $133 USD / bitcoin in just a few years.

Usualy a merchant will just want a small number of bitcoin customers at first, to save a litle bitcoin each week, but once they learn to exchange online for fiat, then they may even put up the We Accept Bitcoin Here sign.

Nonsense.

No business wants to have to deal with exchange rates on everyday transactions.

Perhaps you should let business speak for themselves. If you are talking about what is economically frugal then you simply happen to be WRONG. There are a number of ways to use bitcoin without the exposure to currency fluctuations. In any case the fluctuations mostly tend in the upward direction so if the pricing method is taken care of, then the economics are well worth the fluctuations. My bitcoin fluctuates too. Doesn't bother me a bit. The price is high when the demand is high. So if I want to sell some, I know I will get a good price when there are plenty of buyers. As for buying, business will not have to bother as they accept bitcoin for profit anyhow. Go ask a few bitcoin business how it works for them.

Especially exchange rates that are changing so fast that what was worth about $10 three years ago is now worth $1,300,000 (according to you).

OH!! of course What was I thinking. Nobody would want to hold stock in a commodity that increases in value. Good grief. What a horrible inconvenience. All my takings in bitcoin for the past month have increased by 7% before I got to convert them back into government fiat which is loosing value as disgraceful rates. Oh noes! What will I do? What will I do?

I guess this means that everyone that had $10 worth of bitcoins 3 years ago is now a millionaire, right?

It was more like four years ago, but yes. Bitcoin has made some people quite wealthy, although many (like myself) have spent back into the economy along the way. If we didn't use it as a currency, it wouldn't have become so attractive and grown in value so much. There was a time when bitcoin was worth next to nothing. Somebody back then bought a pizza for 10,000 BTC. Bitcoin is currently trading at about $133.2 USD So you do the math, but I get $1,332,000. I remember bitcoin being worth less than 50 cents. Then came parity with the dollar, then holding between $5 -$7 for a while. Then there was a huge rally up to $32 and a correction back around $15, then gradually rising until the Cypress thing happened when it went up to $266, before correcting down to below $100. Now again it steadily rises and sits at $130 - $135. The fluctuations are also becoming less and less prominent as the depth of the market increases. It is completely understandable that a small currency is more volatile. What matters though, is the direction it goes over time. A fisherman doesn't look at a single wave crashing on the shore then the immediately subsiding waterline, to judge if the tide is coming in or going out.

In government fiat dollars the tide is always going out. In bitcoin it's coming in... FAST.

[Skepticus]

To ALL

My intention in starting this thread was to offer help and advice to anybody interested in using bitcoin or wanting to learn more. I am not interested in having protracted debates about the efficacy or viability of bitcoin. Those who dont wish to use it or learn about it, may choose to do so (or not do so) without derailing this thread with uninformed and futile criticisms of bitcoin. I'm a bitcoin enthusiast and this is a PRO bitcoin thread. If you want to debate about the viability or legality of bitcoin etc. that's fine but if you wouldn't mind, please start another thread elsewhere.

Thanks Skep.