Mold in homes

[JimC]

May be related to the species of timber used for the pole, as well. Some species are more easily treatable. Here in NZ, we use mostly radiata pine, which just loves the CCA salts, and holds onto them like crazy. In Oz, they also treat eucalypt that way, and it is not as successful. Do you know what poles are made of at your place?

Actually, in Oz it is mostly always radiata pine as well - the treated pine I spoke about before. They don't allow its use for constructing playgrounds in parks - toddlers may lick the surface, I guess...

[MiM]

May be related to the species of timber used for the pole, as well. Some species are more easily treatable. Here in NZ, we use mostly radiata pine, which just loves the CCA salts, and holds onto them like crazy. In Oz, they also treat eucalypt that way, and it is not as successful. Do you know what poles are made of at your place?

Almost certainly Scots Pine (pinus sylvestris). That is what is normally used for treated wood over here. Should be good for that (or so they claim).

[Blind groper]

Either way, MiM, if CCA salts are coming out of the wood, the company doing the treating is grossly incompetent. It should never, ever happen.

[pErvinalia]

May be related to the species of timber used for the pole, as well. Some species are more easily treatable. Here in NZ, we use mostly radiata pine, which just loves the CCA salts, and holds onto them like crazy. In Oz, they also treat eucalypt that way, and it is not as successful. Do you know what poles are made of at your place?

Actually, in Oz it is mostly always radiata pine as well - the treated pine I spoke about before. They don't allow its use for constructing playgrounds in parks - toddlers may lick the surface, I guess...

Yeah, and the hard wood is treated with the other treatment (whatever it is; something dark and sort of oily like).

By the way, I know this convo has moved on from mould, but I worked in a library where we got a mould outbreak, which as you can imagine is a VERY serious issue in a library. We got professional cleaners in to sort it out. At my old house I used to have a lot of mould problems, so I asked one of the pro's what they use. And they said it's basically a commercialised version of vinegar and water. It has some other things added to aid in application and remove the vinegar smell. So I started using that at home (about 30:70 vinegar:water) and it work significantly better than bleach. It almost certainly was killing a good amount of the spores as well as killing the topical stuff. It's better than supermarket bought specialty mould treatments.

[MiM]

May be related to the species of timber used for the pole, as well. Some species are more easily treatable. Here in NZ, we use mostly radiata pine, which just loves the CCA salts, and holds onto them like crazy. In Oz, they also treat eucalypt that way, and it is not as successful. Do you know what poles are made of at your place?

Actually, in Oz it is mostly always radiata pine as well - the treated pine I spoke about before. They don't allow its use for constructing playgrounds in parks - toddlers may lick the surface, I guess...

Yeah, and the hard wood is treated with the other treatment (whatever it is; something dark and sort of oily like).

Probably Coal-tar creosote.

By the way, I know this convo has moved on from mould, but I worked in a library where we got a mould outbreak, which as you can imagine is a VERY serious issue in a library. We got professional cleaners in to sort it out. At my old house I used to have a lot of mould problems, so I asked one of the pro's what they use. And they said it's basically a commercialised version of vinegar and water. It has some other things added to aid in application and remove the vinegar smell. So I started using that at home (about 30:70 vinegar:water) and it work significantly better than bleach. It almost certainly was killing a good amount of the spores as well as killing the topical stuff. It's better than supermarket bought specialty mould treatments.

Interesting, thanks.

[Blind groper]

Creosote is pretty nasty stuff. It is also frequently applied using vacuum pressure methods, but is less effective than CCA. Sometimes people apply it topically with a paintbrush, but it is no better than any other topical treatment. It is also quite strongly carcinogenic. Not something I would personally ever recommend.

[MiM]

Creosote is pretty nasty stuff. It is also frequently applied using vacuum pressure methods, but is less effective than CCA. Sometimes people apply it topically with a paintbrush, but it is no better than any other topical treatment. It is also quite strongly carcinogenic. Not something I would personally ever recommend.

Agree. But it's getting used on electric line poles here now, since cca is forbidden. Maybe less a strain for the environment , but the people working with the poles are now getting symptoms, and should work with protective gear. Try climbing a pole using a gas mask and a protective overall.

Mousy

[Blind groper]

MiM

That sounds kinda stoopid to me.

CCA, if done properly is a negligible strain on the environment. All three salts are found in small amounts in soil, anyway. If the treatment is done properly, the salts fix very thoroughly to timber, and any leaching will be so miniscule it will not raise the salt level in soil much above background levels, and will remain at a concentration well below that which causes harm.

Creosote, on the other hand, does not fix to timber anywhere near as well, and causes cancer. It is far more likely to enter the human body and cause real harm.

[MiM]

MiM

That sounds kinda stoopid to me.

It does doesn't it, but then I don't claim to have real facts on the different behaviour of these poisons, so

[Jason]

Creosote treatment is what is used on railroad ties AFAIK. I believe they're oak of some type.

[Blind groper]

There was another experiment that might interest you. Sawdust is often added to soil to improve physical properties - mainly aeration and drainage. However, sawdust breaks down and consumes nitrogen in the process. The Ministry of Agricuture here in NZ experimented with CCA treated sawdust. Saw up CCA treated timber and you get CCA treated sawdust.

They mixed it with topsoil, and grew vegetables in it. Used untreated sawdust as a control. The CCA sawdust produced a much better crop, without the need to keep adding nitrogen fertiliser. They analysed the veges, and the only "problem" was a trace of arsenic in the very tips of the roots on carrots and radishes. That is the part you cut off anyway. So growing veges in soil that contains CCA treated sawdust is effective, and eating those veges is safe.

The thing I do not know, I admit, is the effect of CCA treatment on Scots Pine and other species. My experience is entirely with radiata pine and eucalypt. However, I see no reason why other pine species should be terribly different. Radiata pine is extremely treatable, and CCA treated radiata poles and timber will last for many decades. I have absolutely no qualms about using it.

[MiM]

There was another experiment that might interest you. Sawdust is often added to soil to improve physical properties - mainly aeration and drainage. However, sawdust breaks down and consumes nitrogen in the process. The Ministry of Agricuture here in NZ experimented with CCA treated sawdust. Saw up CCA treated timber and you get CCA treated sawdust.

They mixed it with topsoil, and grew vegetables in it. Used untreated sawdust as a control. The CCA sawdust produced a much better crop, without the need to keep adding nitrogen fertiliser. They analysed the veges, and the only "problem" was a trace of arsenic in the very tips of the roots on carrots and radishes. That is the part you cut off anyway. So growing veges in soil that contains CCA treated sawdust is effective, and eating those veges is safe.

The thing I do not know, I admit, is the effect of CCA treatment on Scots Pine and other species. My experience is entirely with radiata pine and eucalypt. However, I see no reason why other pine species should be terribly different. Radiata pine is extremely treatable, and CCA treated radiata poles and timber will last for many decades. I have absolutely no qualms about using it.

Link to the publication/abstract of that experiment please (or at least to a longer article about it). And then one note on scientific experiments and their results. A positive result in one experiment does not prove that the practice is generally safe. Obviously absence of danger or ill effects can never be proven, so we need to be careful also not to demand too low risk levels, but one experiment really only says that "In the exact conditions and with the specific methods, and within the time frame of this experiment no ill effects where observed". E.g. other plants, more/less rain, longer time or higher/lower temperatures or acidity in the soil could give completely different results. Still an interesting experiment and result, obviously.

[MiM]

Here is a 400-page report with papers from a 2004 conference about CCA-leakage. A short browse through abstracts and conclusions does not give me the feeling that Groper is right in his claims that leakage is minimal and never bad for the environment or humans.

[Blind groper]

From MiM's reference, and I quote :

"We conclude that the incidence of cancer known to be associated with arsenic
exposure is either unchanged or decreased in age groups that would have been exposed to
CCA-preserved wood structures during childhood. The rate of arsenic-related cancers has
been the same or decreasing over the time in which CCA preserved wood has been sold in
the United States. Thus, these data provide preliminary evidence suggesting that there has
not been an increase in arsenic-associated cancers during the period of extensive use of
CCA-preserved wood in the United States. "

[MiM]

From MiM's reference, and I quote :

"We conclude that the incidence of cancer known to be associated with arsenic
exposure is either unchanged or decreased in age groups that would have been exposed to
CCA-preserved wood structures during childhood. The rate of arsenic-related cancers has
been the same or decreasing over the time in which CCA preserved wood has been sold in
the United States. Thus, these data provide preliminary evidence suggesting that there has
not been an increase in arsenic-associated cancers during the period of extensive use of
CCA-preserved wood in the United States. "

That's some awesome cherry picking, especially as the discussion here hasn't really been focused at cancer at all