Bird and prey: heron swoops on ducks

[Xamonas Chegwé]

YOU pointed out that a species can be both, did you? Well good for you - because I would never have figured that one out for myself.

Actually, what you did was assert that we used to be prey, for most of our evolution, but that now we are predators - and are unable to adjust to that state. A glib, unsupported statement that simply does not fit the facts. And when I called you on it, you just waffled and threw up strawmen.

Congratulations, you win the internet with that wonderful display of logical debate. Now go convince Seth to campaign for Obama.

[mistermack]

I really don't see what point you are making, but I'm beginning to suspect it's a pretty dumb one.
The phrase you originally objected to, was that humans have been a prey species for most of our evolution. And your reasoning was stereo vision and canines.
Both were false reasons, and you haven't contradicted that, or proved them.

I pointed out that even if correct, being a predator wouldn't preclude us being a prey species. You can be both. So the false evidence you offered was simply irrelevant anyway.

The fact is, for most of our evolution, our ancestors had to constantly be scared and look out for predators. Now we don't.
Our ancestors WERE prey species. We don't have that problem any more.
.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I really don't see what point you are making, but I'm beginning to suspect it's a pretty dumb one.
The phrase you originally objected to, was that humans have been a prey species for most of our evolution.

Not exactly. It was more than that. It was the assertion that we were prey species but are now predators. My claim was that we are neither more nor less either prey or predator than our ancestors have been for many millions of years.

And your reasoning was stereo vision and canines.
Both were false reasons, and you haven't contradicted that, or proved them.

You claimed that they were false reasons. You didn't demonstrate that other than to assert (without any sources to back your claims) that the stereoscopic vision of hominids is a result of swinging through trees - leading me to think you may have seen one too many Tarzan movies...

You went on to claim that the fact that vegetarian gorillas have large canines shows that this is not a characteristic of predator species. This is a strawman argument - gorillas as a group have adapted to a mostly vegetarian diet from the more generalist, omnivorous diet of most primates. However, they are NOT a prey species by any usual definition and have no natural predators in their usual habitats (except, of course, from human hunters!)

I pointed out that even if correct, being a predator wouldn't preclude us being a prey species. You can be both. So the false evidence you offered was simply irrelevant anyway.

And here's the money shot. It was your assertion that we were prey and now we are predator - yet here you are claiming that we are both! Of course we CAN be prey - I have never claimed otherwise, only that our status has not shifted from prey to predator. Whether we were always predators, or whether we were always both, matters not - either way WE HAVE NOT RECENTLY MADE THE TRANSITION FROM PREY TO PREDATOR AS YOU CLAIMED!

The fact is, for most of our evolution, our ancestors had to constantly be scared and look out for predators. Now we don't.
Our ancestors WERE prey species. We don't have that problem any more.

Our ancestors - and, contextually here, I am taking that to mean hominids and not the unicellular ancestors of billions of years ago - were preyed upon opportunistically by large carnivores, but that has not changed! Humans are killed and eaten by bears, big cats, coyotes, sharks, alligators, etc. every year. That it happens less than previously is down to the reduction in numbers of those species, the reduction in their habitats, and the ensuing reduction in human contact - oh, and the fact that the humans that do meet them, often carry guns!

But if you go walking in the forests of Canada, or scuba-diving in shark-infested waters, or wading in the everglades, you would be very fucking stupid indeed to assume that you don't need "to constantly be scared and look out for predators."


Where you were wrong was in asserting, without evidence, that the status of humanity had shifted from prey to predator. It hasn't. We have always been both, but mainly the latter. Our intelligence, sociability and ability to make weapons and defenses has enabled us to maintain that status in spite of our lack of razor fangs and claws.

Where I was wrong was in not making it clear exactly what I was disagreeing with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predation# ... _predation

[mistermack]

Where I was wrong was in not making it clear exactly what I was disagreeing with.

No, you made it perfectly clear. Here are your exact words :

A prey species for most of our evolution? Really? Do you have sources for that?

Unfortunately for you, you can bluster as much as you like, but you can't re-write your own words.

You also wrote :

YOU pointed out that a species can be both, did you? Well good for you - because I would never have figured that one out for myself.

You clearly didn't, because this is what you wrote

I would have thought that all of our primate ancestors would be primarily classed as predators by virtue of their stereoscopic vision and canine teeth.

Apart from being complete rubbish, you clearly think that being primarily classed as predators would somehow mean that they weren't prey. I'm glad I was able to help you out there. No need to thank me.
You also wrote :

1. We are predominantly predators and the same applies to all of our ancestors for tens of millions of years at the very least.

This is absolute rubbish. Where did you get this stuff? Tens of millions of years at the very least? I suggest you do some reading of human evolution.
Even modern hunter gatherers have a predominantly vegetable diet, with meat being an important, but minority food.
We have only been able to cook food for less than one million years, so before that, raw meat would be a rather risky food to humans. Our bodies are not adapted to being predominantly predators. If you tried to live on raw bush meat, you would very quickly get food poisoning.

And most experts on human evolution will tell you that meat was mostly scavenged, rather than hunted, when we left the forests.
The only species I've heard of that could be described as "predominantly predators" were the Neanderthals, and they only go back half a million years.

Instead of trying to rewrite what you wrote, I would recommend that you do a bit of research on human evolution, and don't just guess at your 'facts'.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Mistermack, you clearly have trouble with adjectives. "Primarily" and "predominately" both carry the meaning of "mainly but not exclusively" - hence my sarcastic remarks regarding YOU coming up with the concept of a species being both prey and predator.

As for your remarks about "raw bushmeat", there is recent speculation (and a thread in this forum somewhere) regarding the development of cooked meat being the key factor in making the high oxygen requirements of human brains being evolutionarily viable. An interesting article if you can track it down.

Regardless, hominids have always been omnivorous, with a large part of our diets being meat, fish, eggs, insects, molluscs, etc. We eat whatever we can get our hands on. Larger herbivores have been hunted by Homo sapiens (and not merely neanderthals) since the emergence of the species - as evidenced by the bones and artifacts found in early dwellings, along with cave paintings of hunting scenes - the earliest permanent record of our species!

There are also remains of herbivore bones associated with the dwellings of earlier hominids.



Admit it. Your original contention that Modern H. sapiens is in any way different from its recent, hominid ancestors in terms of its prey/predator status was ill thought out, flippant and wrong. Everything you have argued since has been a smokescreen of strawman arguments attempting to avoid that fact.

[mistermack]

Xamonas
It's obvious that there is no future in debating anything with you, as facts and truth are just something to be changed at will to you.

You change what you said, change what I said, and bullshit bullshit bullshit. If it makes you feel better, that's ok by me.

But it's not worth a relevant response, because that would just cause more changes to the facts, and more bullshit. It gets sad and tiresome.
Bye.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Xamonas
It's obvious that there is no future in debating anything with you, as facts and truth are just something to be changed at will to you.

You change what you said, change what I said, and bullshit bullshit bullshit. If it makes you feel better, that's ok by me.

But it's not worth a relevant response, because that would just cause more changes to the facts, and more bullshit. It gets sad and tiresome.
Bye.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you have an inkling of how it felt for me to constantly have the goalposts moved by you?

Your original statement...

It's a natural reaction for humans, who have been a prey species for most of our evolution.
...
...
We are predators now, but most of the killing is hidden, behind the doors of the food factories, so we haven't become used to it.

...is what I have consistently challenged.

I say that it is simply not true that the prey/predator status of hominids has changed. I have provided reasons for that. I would happily retract my position if you can provide evidence to back your claim.

To claim that I am the one changing what I say, when you have attempted to fudge the distinctions between predator and prey, and imply that, since humans can be both, your statement is therefore true.

I say again, evidence, sources, or admit you have neither.

[Gallstones]

I wish somebody'd had had the presence of mind to make a video of the heron eating the baby ducks.

[Animavore]

[devogue]

Fucking Ian Huntley cunt of a heron.

[FBM]

I blame rampant mirror neurons.

[Cormac]

Fucking Ian Huntley cunt of a heron.

Apt, eloquent, witty, and to the point, as usual Dev.

m

(Are we sure it isn't a Myra?)