Psychopaths

[hadespussercats]

Okay, I'm back, at least for a bit, because it's an interesting thread. And I've never put anyone on "ignore" before, but maybe I'll give it a try. First, though:

At some point, people who are insane become a threat to themselves and society. Currently we determine this by noting that they've hurt or killed someone. This seems a bit callous to me. Apparently not to you.

I realize Seth has already pointed this out, but I'd like to confirm that there are in fact many insane people who are no threat to society, and only a threat to themselves in that they can't organize their thoughts well enough to take care of themselves.

You deeply and personally offend me, Schneibster, when you suggest otherwise. You are clearly ignorant, and, again, to use a term you'll understand, paranoid about a certain stripe of the mentally ill.

You've posted about "getting" these people tested and assessed. How would that happen? Who would do the testing and assessing? Who would be chosen to be subject to the tests? These are reasonable questions, and since there is historic precedent for governmental agencies to use processes like these to control their populace or strip them of civil rights, it is in no way paranoid or unreasonable to be wary of what you seem to suggest.

And if treatment is deemed necessary, but is not mandatory, how would prospective patients be encourage to accept therapy?

What reason do you have to believe that psychopathy is treatable by cognitive behavioral therapy?

I understand CBT helped you. Are you a psychopath? Do you have a brain similar to that of a psychopath?

I'll conclude by pointing out that it's entirely possible to respect the efficacy of psychology in the hands of certain practitioners, or certain brands of psychology, without embracing the entire discipline as a panacea to all mental problems.

I love therapy. But many psychologists are total quacks.

[Gallstones]

Timonen.

[Gallstones]

Another Timonen.

[Gallstones]

At some point, people who are insane become a threat to themselves and society. Currently we determine this by noting that they've hurt or killed someone. This seems a bit callous to me. Apparently not to you.

Have we decided on a definition for insane?
Until we do we can't discuss it or what to do about it.


Treatment to affect disorder and cause a person to be functional, can not be forced. The affected person has to be able and willing and motivated to cooperate with treatment methods.

A person can be forced into incarceration and drugs forced on them; but that is not treatment.

[Schneibster]

And how I know is because I underwent cognitive therapy for PTSD. In this type of therapy, the emotional context is everything; what the conversation is about is not important. So I got to pick his brain, and since I am fascinated with cognitive neuroscience generally and neuropsychology and neurophysiology specifically, we had some remarkably deep discussions and he gave me several books. Ultimately, it turned out that I had a better grasp of things than I had been aware of, and he was able to guide me to sources that I would never have thought of looking at. In addition, I have had a fair bit (though less than I would have liked) of interaction with Febble, who is a neuroscience researcher in Britain who is engaged in fMRI research and the interpretation of said research, and posts on TR. She also guided me past some shoals before I started therapy, and I shall be forever grateful, because as a result my therapist didn't conclude I was an idiot and tell me he couldn't discuss therapy while doing therapy.

I miss Febble a lot. But not enough to go back to TR.

I'm sorry Hades. Cunt is pissing me off and I shouldn't be taking it out on you.

[Gallstones]

Most mental and emotional problems are about what sufferers lack. The ones that aren't about that are so debilitating that sufferers either die or are completely incapable of negotiating human society, much less murdering someone or wanting much of anything.

What the fuck do you know about it?

I'll use a parlance you'll understand: The above quote is a lie.

And I think I'm done with this thread.

Hades, take a break and/or spectate, I've got your back.

[Gallstones]

Should we criminalize self harm?

[Svartalf]

Do we give suicides a christian funeral ?

[Schneibster]

At some point, people who are insane become a threat to themselves and society. Currently we determine this by noting that they've hurt or killed someone. This seems a bit callous to me. Apparently not to you.

Have we decided on a definition for insane?
Until we do we can't discuss it or what to do about it.

I liked mine above pretty well, though it's got some holes. Keep in mind as well that "insane" is pretty subjective in the grey area, but pretty definitive on each side of it. The big "sane" area and the big "insane" area are pretty clear. Lots of obfuscators make hay out of the grey area, but that's all smoke if you look at the big percentages. The grey area is why we have psychologists and not machines.

Treatment to affect disorder and cause a person to be functional, can not be forced. The affected person has to be able and willing and motivated to cooperate with treatment methods.

Sure. Drug therapy, like in psychiatry, can be forced. "Forcing" counseling involves doing some convincing. I wouldn't have stayed to get the therapy I got, which was highly successful, without some convincing.

The deadly thing was, the stuff I was doing to myself was the same stuff that had made me a successful computer systems engineer. It scared hell out of me to let it go and start caring about myself. I damn near died trying.

This is typical and I was told about many people who ultimately decided to die rather than accept treatment. Those are tragedies but not the ones that concern us here.

A person can be forced into incarceration and drugs forced on them; but that is not treatment.

Well, for the most extreme cases, yeah, it is. We know a lot more than we did; One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was decades ago, and most people IMO are future shocked dealing with cognitive science.

[Schneibster]

Okay, I'm back, at least for a bit, because it's an interesting thread. And I've never put anyone on "ignore" before, but maybe I'll give it a try. First, though:

At some point, people who are insane become a threat to themselves and society. Currently we determine this by noting that they've hurt or killed someone. This seems a bit callous to me. Apparently not to you.

I realize Seth has already pointed this out, but I'd like to confirm that there are in fact many insane people who are no threat to society, and only a threat to themselves in that they can't organize their thoughts well enough to take care of themselves.

Those people are not psychopaths.

You deeply and personally offend me, Schneibster, when you suggest otherwise. You are clearly ignorant, and, again, to use a term you'll understand, paranoid about a certain stripe of the mentally ill.

You deeply and personally offend me, Hades, when you imply that I said it about anyone but psychopaths. I don't see this going anywhere. All I see is paranoia.

Convince me otherwise. I invite it; I would like it. i don't dislike you and this came out of left field. I will apologize again for my reaction, but it was not wholly because of Cunt.

[Gallstones]

Most mental and emotional problems are about what sufferers lack. The ones that aren't about that are so debilitating that sufferers either die or are completely incapable of negotiating human society, much less murdering someone or wanting much of anything.

What the fuck do you know about it?

I'll use a parlance you'll understand: The above quote is a lie.

And I think I'm done with this thread.

Good riddance. All you brought was paranoia.

Ooh, this was unnecessarily unkind.

[Schneibster]

Should we criminalize self harm?

Absolutely not. No help will come to anyone from putting them in the CJ system.

[Schneibster]

Most mental and emotional problems are about what sufferers lack. The ones that aren't about that are so debilitating that sufferers either die or are completely incapable of negotiating human society, much less murdering someone or wanting much of anything.

What the fuck do you know about it?

I'll use a parlance you'll understand: The above quote is a lie.

And I think I'm done with this thread.

Good riddance. All you brought was paranoia.

Ooh, this was unnecessarily unkind.

I have already apologized twice.

[Schneibster]

I'm not gonna argue with someone's emotions. Think then speak. Drop the emotionalism. It's not a very good substitute for thought. Gallstones has caught on. Watch her. She's smart.

[Gallstones]

At some point, people who are insane become a threat to themselves and society. Currently we determine this by noting that they've hurt or killed someone. This seems a bit callous to me. Apparently not to you.

At some point "normal" people become a threat to themselves and others.

Say when they text and drive or put on makeup and drive or leave a toddler in a bathtub unsupervised or when they decide to see if the gun is loaded by looking down the barrel.

If a person is only a threat to themselves, what of it? Is coercive intervention justified?

And for my edification, what is it that schizophrenics and manic depressives lack?