Inappropriate Elimination

[Existentialist1844]

He looks a dear old cat, Exi. *stroke stroke*

Agreed! Great pictures, Exi! i love the one of him in the bed... That's perfect! My cats, unfortunately, really don't tolerate me pulling covers up over them... as adorable as I think it is.

Thanks.

He loves being under the covers, especially when someone is laying next to him!

He's getting old and that makes me sad I dont know how much longer he has left. When he passes, Im going to be devastated

[Cwazy Cat Lady]

MESSAGE 2: I can't use the box.

Does, "My human is a lazy bastard and hasn't emptied the fucking thing for weeks!" also fit into this category?

Good question, XC. I tend to categorize "dirty litterpan" into Message 3 which deals with cats deciding another place is more desirable than the box (for a large number of reasons). I will get to that next. As for dirty litterpans, there is a recent story that demonstrates, perhaps, the extreme of this... We had two cats surrendered by a woman whose aunt had become mentally ill over the past year or so and was unable to really care for her kitties properly. Her family would come to check in on her at her studio apt. about once a week or every two weeks. The niece, who surrendered the cats, told me that the litterbox was a solid block when she would come over--the clumping litter was so soiled with urine and so rarely scooped, that there was nothing left for the cats to actually dig in and use for covering. While she says she never found urine spots or feces, she says she suspects the cats may have soiled in the home because the smell was extreme and did not resolve once the cats were given up. I wouldn't be surprised if the cats did soil, as there is no way that these kitties could have really used the box if they had even tried. Poor kitties.

I had a cat once (Harry the Bastard) that was terrified to go outside because the very first time I took him into the garden as a kitten, an alsatian came leaping over the low wall out of nowhere and scared the shit out of him! The poor little fellow fought to avoid being put outside after that.

Interesting... This is not about litterboxes, but it is a great example of how cats (and other animals) easily form associations even through a single experience--associations that can be very hard to break once formed. In this case, your cat had his first romp outdoors and it was pretty negative on the spectrum of how things go for a cat. There's a very good chance that single impression shaped his behavior from then onwards. I will be talking about this a bit in Message 3; many cats can have one negative experience in the litterbox and will be off it completely until some intensive retraining (likely involving confinement, positive reinforcement, etc).

He had a litter tray but refused to use it - I am wondering now, having read you post, if it could have been down to 'guarding' by the other (older) cat in the house, who never used the tray personally but used to sleep in a basket right next to it.

It's possible. Cats have rather flexible and subtle social hierarchies. As far as behaviorists can tell, the same cat (in a multi-cat household) may not be dominant in every situation--it is usually quite contextual and, therefore, can depend on the specific location in the house (behind the couch, on the bed), which other cats or humans are around and what is going on (is it feeding time, nap time, etc.?). This guarding doesn't necessarily result in one cat literally standing in front of a litterbox and growling (it could)... but rather avoidance of certain areas by a low-ranking or submissive cat. So, the fact that your older cat reclined right by the litterbox is a possible indicator of that general location being part of his territory.

In order to decrease the likelihood of guarding behavior preventing a cat from using a box, or simply the possibility of the toilet being 'occupied' by another cat in the home, behaviorists tend to recommend that the number of boxes in a home be determined by the so-called 'n+1' rule: the number of cats you have (n) plus one is the ideal number of boxes in the home. Some people can get away with fewer if they minimize the 'pressure' on each box by (for example):

--having the right mix of cats (you can't control this as much, because you never know how cats will take to each other till you bring them home, but generally, the more cats you add to the dynamic, the chances for conflict increase exponentially...)
--scooping the boxes diligently
--also allowing some outdoor access

Nevertheless, I always tell people to follow the 'n+1' rule. I encourage everyone to try to set up ideal litterbox conditions from the get-go (see Message 3) and to stick with them if they are working. It's far easier to start out right and never have to resolve an issue than it is to try to fix the behavior once things are broken!

The multi-cat dynamic can really complicate matters in your home. Two cats is sometimes company, three is usually broaching on a crowd, and any more than that usually becomes risky... I should know! I have tested the limits many a time and I currently have to 'manage' my cat population by shifting cats around. (Essentially I have one female that cannot be in the same area as my other two females. She always ends up fighting them). One of the best things to do to mitigate these issues, if you have cats, especially more than one, is to add square footage to your home by offering plenty of vertical spaces for cats to use. This can be accomplished by adding shelving or ramps (for the true fanatics) or cat trees/condos. I think the cat trees in my house have really added quality of life for my cats. Not only are they located in places with great access to the sun, but they have beautiful views and are located in well-trafficked areas, which cats seem to like, especially for scratching/scent deposit. Vertical space is an important component in a cat's landscape and as territories shift so much by location, context, time of day, etc... it helps to cushion any turf conflict.

Harry eventually disappeared for a week and was spotted on the windowsill of a house a few doors down - he had been sneaking in through their cat-flap and they had fed him and provided a bed and litter tray - having recently lost their own cat under a car. In that house, he was happy to use the tray and never shat anywhere else, whereas in ours, he had had a nasty habit of pulling up carpets close to the wall in every room in the house and depositing his little messages underneath. As Harry was happy there, I let them keep him.

You really lucked out! I am glad, for your sake, and for Harry's, that this arrangement worked.

There is a good chance that Harry might have preferred to be the only cat in the home. That's actually really common. I feel like a disproportionate number of females are 'one cat' cats, especially the tri-colored females (calicos, torties and torbies), but I've known a few male cats with that need, too. This 'solo cat' complex is something I see a lot of at the shelter, in fact. Not all cats that detest other cats will soil the house they live in. I think it's the more anxious or insecure kitties that resort to that. For that reason, I tend to include the 'I hate other cats' into my Message 4 category (I am insecure/anxious); when you think about it, though, the potential for conflict between cats leading to soiling actually fits into all four of my groupings in a way. Here's why:

Message 1 connection (Inter-specific communication, esp. intact animals): If you have an intact cat, it is more likely to try to leave territorial/reproductive scent signals if other cats are around. (DOH!)

Message 2 connection (I cannot use the box): If another cat is using the box or is guarding the box, your cat may not be able to use it or feel comfortable using it. (DUH!)

Message 3 connection (this is part of a preview): If your cat likes a scrupulously clean box, or to have one box for doing #1 and a separate one for doing #2, it may not tolerate having other cats soil it/them. (MAYBE LESS INTUITIVE)

Message 4 connection (also a bit of a preview): Many cats do not like other cats--usually this is more out of fear than anything else. These cats may try to self-soothe and express their anxiety by leaving their scent--by urinating and even defecating--around the house or on specific surfaces. This is anxiety-driven and usually resolves immediately through confinement away from the other cat in the same house or rehoming (to a place with no other felines!). I think this sounds like your Harry, XC.

[Cwazy Cat Lady]

I should say that defecation outside of the box is usually preferable to urination...

he does occassionally urinate outside the tray, but not often. He was perfectly litter trained. He's old now 16-ish, has a failing heart and kidneys for which he's on medication which keeps him well, he has cat aids which causes occasional short term illnesses like flu and diarrhoea, which as yet, he always recovers well from. We recently discovered he has a liver tumor, which the vet isn't going to treat and is likely responsible for him gradually loosing weight (he's 2.9Kg now). Other than that, he's a very happy and healthy cat... but he poos in random places round the house, usually somewhere out of the way and quiet, where you smell it before you see it.

Here he is...

So, Pappa, I assume your cat (who clearly is well-vetted) has been checked for urinary crystals, urinary tract infections, or other conditions relating to his urinary/digestive tract?

My 17 yo female gets pretty bad UTIs about once a year. She has to go on a very long course of antibiotics and I've heard that this is pretty common for old lady kitties. I don't know if males are very susceptible, but I do know that urinary crystals (struvites) are more likely to cause serious complications in boy cats (due to their plumbing) and to be noticed by the cat sooner... has he had a urinalysis ( I suspect so, if he's been diagnosed with kidney issues)?

Some old kitties also have some issues with anal gland expression (the anal glands can get painfully full).

Of course, some old cats really do seem to become senile at some point and may require some extra help. Some of them may have issues with the box (say if they have arthritis) and can't balance well on the litter or comfortably stand in the tray. Of course, it could be negative association from pain upon elimination...

In other words, it's hard to say...

How many pans are in the home? Have you tried putting out puppy pee pads on the floor where he tends to soil the most (some cats instinctively seem to know those are appropriate to soil on)? Or some different kinds of boxes with different litters, to see if he uses them? He may never be perfect, but perhaps having more options/locations, might make it more 'desirable' to use the box than your carpet? I'll try to address the litterbox preference issue and negative association in my next post... It's a big topic... and I have a few interesting stories. Cats never fail to fascinate me.

[Cwazy Cat Lady]

He's getting old and that makes me sad I dont know how much longer he has left. When he passes, Im going to be devastated

I bet. It's not easy, especially when you've watched them their whole lives grow and change and, from what I've seen, grow sweeter as they get old...

On the bright side, he'll leave behind a place for some other needy kitty to occupy. And all that you've learned from this cat you can use to help you raise and care for the next one as well, if not even better.

I learned a lot with my old kitty... When he was young, we had no litterbox for him... we fed him not so great food... probably should have kept him on a diet and taken him to the vet more... I've learned a lot over the years and my current pets really benefit from it!

[Pappa]

I should say that defecation outside of the box is usually preferable to urination...

he does occassionally urinate outside the tray, but not often. He was perfectly litter trained. He's old now 16-ish, has a failing heart and kidneys for which he's on medication which keeps him well, he has cat aids which causes occasional short term illnesses like flu and diarrhoea, which as yet, he always recovers well from. We recently discovered he has a liver tumor, which the vet isn't going to treat and is likely responsible for him gradually loosing weight (he's 2.9Kg now). Other than that, he's a very happy and healthy cat... but he poos in random places round the house, usually somewhere out of the way and quiet, where you smell it before you see it.

Here he is...

So, Pappa, I assume your cat (who clearly is well-vetted) has been checked for urinary crystals, urinary tract infections, or

My 17 yo female gets pretty bad UTIs about once a year. She has to go on a very long course of antibiotics and I've heard that this is pretty common for old lady kitties. I don't know if males are very susceptible, but I do know that urinary crystals (struvites) are more likely to cause serious complications in boy cats (due to their plumbing) and to be noticed by the cat sooner... has he had a urinalysis ( I suspect so, if he's been diagnosed with kidney issues)?

Some old kitties also have some issues with anal gland expression.

Of course, old cats really do seem to become senile at some point and may require some extra help. Some of them may have issues with the box (say if they have arthritis) and can't balance well on the litter or comfortably stand in the tray. Of course, it could be negative association from pain upon elimination...

Hard to say...

How many pans are in the home? Have you tried putting out puppy pee pads on the floor where he tens to soil the most? Or some different kinds of boxes with different litters, to see if he uses them? He may never be perfect, but perhaps having more options/locations, might make it more 'desirable' to use the box than your carpet? I'll try to address the litterbox preference issue and negative association in my next post... It's a big topic... and i have a few interesting stories. Cats never fail to fascinate me.

To be fair to Peavey, he doesn't actually crap around the house all that often. He'll usually do it several times over a few days and then not again for several weeks.

I'm not sure if he's been checked for urinary crystals, but he's had a lot of blood tests and sees the vet once a month at the moment (he gets weighed and has a thorough check over). He takes diuretics daily to stop fluid building up around his stomach and tablets for his heart too.

[Cwazy Cat Lady]

Interesting, Pappa...

Next time he goes on a 'poo in the house' spree, please let me know! I'd love to see if there is some kind of pattern... The organization I work for has a pretty good questionnaire that we ask people to fill out if they are having housesoiling issues with the cat they are surrendering or calling for help with. The questions usually help to jog peoples' memories about the behavior and the context and to try to connect the dots between events and situations. Sometimes they never thought it might have something to do with what is happening in the house, in the family, or in the neighborhood at the time... I've seen some really cool (strange) cases and without having raised some awareness on the part of the owner, they'd have never found a link between something seemingly unrelated and their cats' change in litterbox habits...

I do have a hunch that your cat has the old cat' can't be bothered' thing to a certain extent. Not that that is his attitude but old cats that change their habits late in life are often hard to figure out. I don't think having litterpans throughout the house could hurt, though... not that everyone wants them in visible areas in every room. I know one cat that simply wanted to mess in front of the TV litterpan there or not. The owner really was unwilling to compromise and put a litterbox there and decided to surrender the cat. I suppose I could possibly sympathize.

[charlou]

He's getting old and that makes me sad I dont know how much longer he has left. When he passes, Im going to be devastated

I bet. It's not easy, especially when you've watched them their whole lives grow and change and, from what I've seen, grow sweeter as they get old...

On the bright side, he'll leave behind a place for some other needy kitty to occupy. And all that you've learned from this cat you can use to help you raise and care for the next one as well, if not even better.

I learned a lot with my old kitty... When he was young, we had no litterbox for him... we fed him not so great food... probably should have kept him on a diet and taken him to the vet more... I've learned a lot over the years and my current pets really benefit from it!

+1.

The first personal experience my children have had with death is that of our pets over the years. It's never easy and it's not meant to be. They're allowed to grieve and to have memorial rituals and to learn the reality of death and what happens to all animals, including we humans, after death. I think they're mentally healthier for it.

[Pappa]

The first personal experience my children have had with death is that of our pets over the years. It's never easy and it's not meant to be. They're allowed to grieve and to have memorial rituals and to learn the reality of death and what happens to all animals, including we humans, after death. I think they're mentally healthier for it.

I've always been very good at handling death and grief. I'm 99% sure it was because I had a fair few pets die as a kid. Guinea pigs, hamsters and dogs. I was very fond of them all and I grieved for them all. Grief and death are things you can get used to. I tend to take the deaths of people I know (even family) in my stride. I still grieve obviously, but then move on too.

[Trolldor]

The first personal experience my children have had with death is that of our pets over the years. It's never easy and it's not meant to be. They're allowed to grieve and to have memorial rituals and to learn the reality of death and what happens to all animals, including we humans, after death. I think they're mentally healthier for it.

I've always been very good at handling death and grief. I'm 99% sure it was because I had a fair few pets die as a kid. Guinea pigs, hamsters and dogs. I was very fond of them all and I grieved for them all. Grief and death are things you can get used to. I tend to take the deaths of people I know (even family) in my stride. I still grieve obviously, but then move on too.

I just see it as the last event in a long line of events.

[maiforpeace]

Sadly, many people mistake their cat's pooping and peeing problems as somehow motivated by anger or revenge when, in all honesty, there is nothing further from the truth.

I agree completely Cwazy. Unlike dogs, cats are too stupid to understand or act on anger or revenge. They're just furry purring shitheads. That's why I'm a dog person. I know when my dog shits in my shoes he's got a deep story to tell and he knows I'm the one too stupid to understand.

How do we know this for a fact?

It may not be motivated by anger or revenge but I have to believe there is some motivation. Years ago I had a very healthy cat who had no inappropriate elimination problems. Except...
When I would go away for the weekend and have a sitter come in and feed her. The cat would poo in a very inappropriate place, like on the couch, a chair or the bed. Only when I went away and left her alone for the weekend.

Thank goodness my current kitties eliminate appropriately except for the occasional accident. My present cat, Ashley is a big cat and has a very furry tail. Once in a while I think she presses her tail down harder than normal when she's taking a dump and a small turd will get stuck on her tail. If she doesn't groom it off, it might fall off randomly somewhere.

My cats Ashley and Sasha:

[charlou]

My cats Ashley and Sasha:

Awww, they're sweeties.

Once in a while I think she presses her tail down harder than normal when she's taking a dump and a small turd will get stuck on her tail. If she doesn't groom it off, it might fall off randomly somewhere.

Now there's something you don't hear about every day.

[Cwazy Cat Lady]

Sadly, many people mistake their cat's pooping and peeing problems as somehow motivated by anger or revenge when, in all honesty, there is nothing further from the truth.

I agree completely Cwazy. Unlike dogs, cats are too stupid to understand or act on anger or revenge. They're just furry purring shitheads. That's why I'm a dog person. I know when my dog shits in my shoes he's got a deep story to tell and he knows I'm the one too stupid to understand.

How do we know this for a fact?

I'm not sure if you are responding more to my comment or FUWF's tongue-in-cheek one...

If you are commenting on my assertion that cats do it out of insecurity or anxiety, well, that's my interpretation of the behavior (and seems to be supported by many others who study this topic). I tend to see other behaviors in association with the soiling that also point away from anger and revenge. In contrast, most of these behaviors are regarded by behaviorists as classic indicators or signs of anxiety. For instance, we often see the following:

--allopecia, caused by the cat over-grooming him- or herself
--hiding
--more frequent bouts of anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea
--excessive vocalization
--fear-based defensive aggression, esp. towards (small) children, other pets

In addition, many people in this field have found great success in resolving the 'anxious' house-soiling by incorporating a lot of classical and operant conditioning--attempting to create for the cat positive associations with the litterbox and, esp. the 'source of the anxiety' (if one can be clearly determined. An example would be offering high value treat rewards, interactive play, and verbal praise in the presence of the trigger (ie; the new baby). This seems to indicate that we can cure the house-soiling if we can take care of the underlying emotional need of the cat--a need for greater security.

I've found that most of the undesirable cat behaviors (aggression, vocalization, soiling, etc.) are borne out of bad habit and, in particular, fear or anxiety. I tell people all the time that no matter what cat you own, you can never overdo positive reinforcement and general confidence building. I really mean that. Put away the squirt bottle, stop punishing your cat, don't scold it. Cats really DO NOT UNDERSTAND that and the effects a counter-productive. Punishing and scolding only leads to a psychological divide and broken relationship between owner and pet.

In your instance, maiforpeace, your cat's soiling while you are going away on vacation and leaving the cat alone can be interpreted in more than one way. A common way of interpreting it is that your cat is angry and acting out. An alternative way, which I am suggesting, and which leads to constructive solutions (IMO), is to view your cat as being anxious or insecure about your absence (after all, it's not like the cat knows what is going on, if/when you will return). Seen in that light, a more compassionate perspective (and more appropriate, I think), it then becomes clear what you can do to help resolve the issue--in this case, you try to make your cat more comfortable with you being away. To do that requires you provide plenty of reassurance and support generally, as well as focus on the details of your absence. With any housesoiling cat, I always think it is a good idea to positively reward litterbox use. As soon as the cat steps out of the box (having used it), offer a high value treat and immediate praise. But for a specific context, too, like vacation--a time of stress for kitty--maybe you confine your cat during that time to a cozy room and turn on a radio... perhaps you try to build a positive association with the suitcase you had lying about in the days beforehand by having the cat play in it or search for treats within (cats have been known to pee on suitcases... and that might be a scent confusion (message 2) or a negative association formed when the sight of the suitcase is linked to your leaving (message 4)...).
Maybe there is a special treat or toy that only the 'cat sitter' brings out... These are just some of many possibilities.

I'll talk more about retraining and setting cats up for success with the litterbox from the beginning later... Confinement is a really important step. Positive reinforcement is a biggie, too.

[maiforpeace]

Sadly, many people mistake their cat's pooping and peeing problems as somehow motivated by anger or revenge when, in all honesty, there is nothing further from the truth.

I agree completely Cwazy. Unlike dogs, cats are too stupid to understand or act on anger or revenge. They're just furry purring shitheads. That's why I'm a dog person. I know when my dog shits in my shoes he's got a deep story to tell and he knows I'm the one too stupid to understand.

How do we know this for a fact?

I'm not sure if you are responding more to my comment or FUWF's tongue-in-cheek one...

If you are commenting on my assertion that cats do it out of insecurity or anxiety, well, that's my interpretation of the behavior (and seems to be supported by many others who study this topic). I tend to see other behaviors in association with the soiling that also point away from anger and revenge. In contrast, most of these behaviors are regarded by behaviorists as classic indicators or signs of anxiety. For instance, we often see the following:

--allopecia, caused by the cat over-grooming him- or herself
--hiding
--more frequent bouts of anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea
--excessive vocalization
--fear-based defensive aggression, esp. towards (small) children, other pets

In addition, many people in this field have found great success in resolving the 'anxious' house-soiling by incorporating a lot of classical and operant conditioning--attempting to create for the cat positive associations with the litterbox and, esp. the 'source of the anxiety' (if one can be clearly determined. An example would be offering high value treat rewards, interactive play, and verbal praise in the presence of the trigger (ie; the new baby). This seems to indicate that we can cure the house-soiling if we can take care of the underlying emotional need of the cat--a need for greater security.

I've found that most of the undesirable cat behaviors (aggression, vocalization, soiling, etc.) are borne out of bad habit and, in particular, fear or anxiety. I tell people all the time that no matter what cat you own, you can never overdo positive reinforcement and general confidence building. I really mean that. Put away the squirt bottle, stop punishing your cat, don't scold it. Cats really DO NOT UNDERSTAND that and the effects a counter-productive. Punishing and scolding only leads to a psychological divide and broken relationship between owner and pet.

In your instance, maiforpeace, your cat's soiling while you are going away on vacation and leaving the cat alone can be interpreted in more than one way. A common way of interpreting it is that your cat is angry and acting out. An alternative way, which I am suggesting, and which leads to constructive solutions (IMO), is to view your cat as being anxious or insecure about your absence (after all, it's not like the cat knows what is going on, if/when you will return). Seen in that light, a more compassionate perspective (and more appropriate, I think), it then becomes clear what you can do to help resolve the issue--in this case, you try to make your cat more comfortable with you being away. To do that requires you provide plenty of reassurance and support generally, as well as focus on the details of your absence. With any housesoiling cat, I always think it is a good idea to positively reward litterbox use. As soon as the cat steps out of the box (having used it), offer a high value treat and immediate praise. But for a specific context, too, like vacation--a time of stress for kitty--maybe you confine your cat during that time to a cozy room and turn on a radio... perhaps you try to build a positive association with the suitcase you had lying about in the days beforehand by having the cat play in it or search for treats within (cats have been known to pee on suitcases... and that might be a scent confusion (message 2) or a negative association formed when the sight of the suitcase is linked to your leaving (message 4)...).
Maybe there is a special treat or toy that only the 'cat sitter' brings out... These are just some of many possibilities.

I'll talk more about retraining and setting cats up for success with the litterbox from the beginning later... Confinement is a really important step. Positive reinforcement is a biggie, too.

Fascinating. It makes so much sense. Cats are not at all unlike people.

I have zero problems with Ashley and Sashi. And, I have always wondered why Ashley is so attracted to my suitcase when I am packing. I'm pleased to know that not packing one half and leaving it for Ashley to sleep in the night before I leave helps her deal with our leaving. I have a great sitter for them when I am gone, nontheless I still feel really guilty leaving them alone.

[Trolldor]

I read yesterday about the two cats - dusty and something or other - who were being abused by a thirteen year old kid.

Of course, anonymous found out and, just from the videos found his facebook and went from there to rescuing the two cats and leading the police to arrest him.


...these guys scare the shit out of m.

[Cwazy Cat Lady]

I have zero problems with Ashley and Sashi. And, I have always wondered why Ashley is so attracted to my suitcase when I am packing. I'm pleased to know that not packing one half and leaving it for Ashley to sleep in the night before I leave helps her deal with our leaving. I have a great sitter for them when I am gone, nontheless I still feel really guilty leaving them alone.

Well, they sure are cute! I can see you 'prepared' the brown bag just for the cats!

I have one kitty, too, who has peed while I was away (last September in Munich)... I knew as soon as I walked in the door. That smell! but she's my baby and because she fights with my other females, she has limited access to the rest of the house. I know it sounds awful, but our time together each day is the highlight of her day, so if I am gone... she really notices...