The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

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Tyrannical
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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Tyrannical » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:38 pm

apophenia wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:
apophenia wrote:
Intelligence will do for now, as I think you are right in that it plays a large part in determining individual success and happiness. What is the estimated range of variation resulting from that non-heritable 20-30%, and what is the range of difference between races in a single culture or comparable cultures once as many non-heritable confounding factors are controlled for?


(and please provide the sources for the data — I'm not going to hold you to a boast you made about researching your points, but I am curious as to how well read you are on this specific topic [genetic heritability and race, not this last specific question] and what your typical sources are for information [and here I'm as interested in secondary sources as primary, as most non-professionals rely to a great extent on secondary sources])
I think Rushton's abridged book should answer most of your immediate questions :prof:

Jean Philippe Rushton is a Canadian psychology professor at the University of Western Ontario.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton
I have taken a summary glance at the material you have provided and found it to be useless. None of the material in Rushton's abridged book contains proper scientific references so it is impossible to assess the validity of his claims (e.g. early on he notes that black babies in America come to term sooner than other racial groups. However, it does not say if this is after controlling for things like socio-economic background and health of the mother, and since it isn't properly referenced to the actual research it is based on, it must be thrown out. The same applies to the rest of the "book".) I also note that Rushton is a rather controversial figure. This in itself doesn't invalidate his science, but it does mean that his results need to be examined carefully. Particularly seeing that your claim was that, "All the scientific and statistical evidence points to the contrary, even when socioeconomic factors are considered," I find an unsourced paper from a scientist outside the mainstream to be inadequate support for your earlier claim. I'm rendered even more skeptical when that one scientist has been reported to cite non-scientific books and Penthouse magazine as scholarly sources.

I'm not ruling out Rushton as an acceptable source, even if he is a crank, he still needs to be evaluated on his merits. However a paper without references to the literature from someone whose views are far from mainstream is insufficient backing for your earlier claim.

Do you have anything else?
The full book is properly sourced of course, the abridged work is a brief summary. I can understand how you think some people just make things up, but that accusation has never come up in any of the criticisms I've read on his work. I think it would be fair to assume he did source his work properly unless you read a criticism on that elsewhere. Feel free to Google criticisms on Rushton's work, it'll save you sometime.

I don't think Rushton cited Penthouse, though some of his research has been compared to the "letters" page in the magazine by critics. As a behavioral psychologist he has studied sexual drive amongst different racial groups.

As far as equalizing things like socioeconomic conditions, the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study is probably the best that can be ethically allowed. I'll give the Wikipedia link since I'm sure it has the proper objections to it. The brief is that well to do middle class Whites adopted Asian, black ,and mulatto babies. The children were IQ tested at both 7 and 17, along with other academic information. While it showed that at age 7 IQ was increased, by early adulthood it had fallen back to near racial norms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_ ... tion_Study

I do appreciate your open mind on the subject, and I do have enough evidence to support my rather racist views. Come to the dark side and embrace the logical conclusion of natural selection :{D
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by apophenia » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:50 am

Tyrannical wrote:
apophenia wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:
apophenia wrote:
Intelligence will do for now, as I think you are right in that it plays a large part in determining individual success and happiness. What is the estimated range of variation resulting from that non-heritable 20-30%, and what is the range of difference between races in a single culture or comparable cultures once as many non-heritable confounding factors are controlled for?


(and please provide the sources for the data — I'm not going to hold you to a boast you made about researching your points, but I am curious as to how well read you are on this specific topic [genetic heritability and race, not this last specific question] and what your typical sources are for information [and here I'm as interested in secondary sources as primary, as most non-professionals rely to a great extent on secondary sources])
I think Rushton's abridged book should answer most of your immediate questions :prof:

Jean Philippe Rushton is a Canadian psychology professor at the University of Western Ontario.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton
I have taken a summary glance at the material you have provided and found it to be useless. None of the material in Rushton's abridged book contains proper scientific references so it is impossible to assess the validity of his claims (e.g. early on he notes that black babies in America come to term sooner than other racial groups. However, it does not say if this is after controlling for things like socio-economic background and health of the mother, and since it isn't properly referenced to the actual research it is based on, it must be thrown out. The same applies to the rest of the "book".) I also note that Rushton is a rather controversial figure. This in itself doesn't invalidate his science, but it does mean that his results need to be examined carefully. Particularly seeing that your claim was that, "All the scientific and statistical evidence points to the contrary, even when socioeconomic factors are considered," I find an unsourced paper from a scientist outside the mainstream to be inadequate support for your earlier claim. I'm rendered even more skeptical when that one scientist has been reported to cite non-scientific books and Penthouse magazine as scholarly sources.

I'm not ruling out Rushton as an acceptable source, even if he is a crank, he still needs to be evaluated on his merits. However a paper without references to the literature from someone whose views are far from mainstream is insufficient backing for your earlier claim.

Do you have anything else?
The full book is properly sourced of course, the abridged work is a brief summary. I can understand how you think some people just make things up, but that accusation has never come up in any of the criticisms I've read on his work. I think it would be fair to assume he did source his work properly unless you read a criticism on that elsewhere. Feel free to Google criticisms on Rushton's work, it'll save you sometime.

I don't think Rushton cited Penthouse, though some of his research has been compared to the "letters" page in the magazine by critics. As a behavioral psychologist he has studied sexual drive amongst different racial groups.

As far as equalizing things like socioeconomic conditions, the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study is probably the best that can be ethically allowed. I'll give the Wikipedia link since I'm sure it has the proper objections to it. The brief is that well to do middle class Whites adopted Asian, black ,and mulatto babies. The children were IQ tested at both 7 and 17, along with other academic information. While it showed that at age 7 IQ was increased, by early adulthood it had fallen back to near racial norms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_ ... tion_Study

I do appreciate your open mind on the subject, and I do have enough evidence to support my rather racist views. Come to the dark side and embrace the logical conclusion of natural selection :{D
I don't assume anything short of actually seeing the references. Why should I? Moreover, that's a common tactic of cranks, to claim things without proper sourcing to make it more difficult to critique the work. No, there is no substitute for examining the things themselves (to borrow from Husserl — who was the topic of our philosophy group tonight). It's also not uncommon for people to cite research or papers that don't actually support the point they are claiming it supports. (And incompetence can never be ruled out a priori. There are plenty of idiots in the world, even PhD carrying, college employed idiots.)

No, there is no substitute for actually examining the work, especially if the conclusions are controversial or outside of, and against, mainstream opinion.

I will try to pick up a copy of his unabridged work tomorrow. At worst, I should have it by this time next week. (Not promising more than that, mind you. I tend to prioritize almost solely for my discussion groups.)

Even more disturbing is that you apparently didn't even read the material that you yourself cited, Wikipedia. To wit:
Wikipedia wrote: Rushton's work has been criticized in the scholarly literature; he has generally responded, sometimes in the same journal. In 1995 in the Journal of Black Studies, Zack Cernovsky wrote, "some of Rushton's references to scientific literature with respects to racial differences in sexual characteristics turned out to be references to a nonscientific semi-pornographic book and to an article in the Penthouse magazine's Forum."

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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by apophenia » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:10 am




Even the best sourced works aren't immune from irresponsible quoting. Norman Doidge, M.D.'s book, The Brain That Changes Itself, in one place, makes reference to some research done on rodents. A dozen or so pages later, he applies the results of research on rodents as if they were equally applicable to humans. Even competent professionals can make mistakes, overreach in their conclusions or just simply misunderstand the meaning of what they were reading. Sir R.A. Fisher's work is notoriously difficult, if someone references the work of a Fisher, there is no shame in wanting to see the actual work they're referencing. And the fact that someone's conclusions are outside the mainstream should immediately alert you to engage in extremely close reading. Rushton hasn't "discovered" a body of research that was unknown to other researchers, so why is it that Rushton's conclusions are so different from everybody else's? Bias and incompetence are the two most common reasons for such disparities. It's possible he is genuinely seeing something others haven't seen, but the odds are against it. The only recourse is to try to look through his eyes, examine his sources, and see if your view aligns with his.


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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by apophenia » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:37 am

Meh. I'm unimpressed with the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. I won't claim to fully understand it, but it looks to have holes that you could drive a truck through. And the divided opinions on the subject are plenty of evidence of that. Drawing test subjects in the control condition from different conditions than those in the test condition? I don't see how you could make a silk purse out of that sow's ear.

(ETA: Initial response scrapped. I'm not reading closely at all tonight. Anyway. Will see what Rushton says.)


(ETA: Oh, and regarding coming over to the dark side, I'm not particularly concerned with this area of psychology as I'm more concerned with things like cognitive bias and general theory of mind; whether there is or isn't a racial difference in intelligence doesn't affect my work at all.)


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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Tyrannical » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:11 pm

apophenia wrote:Meh. I'm unimpressed with the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. I won't claim to fully understand it, but it looks to have holes that you could drive a truck through. And the divided opinions on the subject are plenty of evidence of that. Drawing test subjects in the control condition from different conditions than those in the test condition? I don't see how you could make a silk purse out of that sow's ear.

(ETA: Initial response scrapped. I'm not reading closely at all tonight. Anyway. Will see what Rushton says.)


(ETA: Oh, and regarding coming over to the dark side, I'm not particularly concerned with this area of psychology as I'm more concerned with things like cognitive bias and general theory of mind; whether there is or isn't a racial difference in intelligence doesn't affect my work at all.)
But cognitive bias varies among ethnic groups, so if you don't take that into account your work could be fundamentally flawed.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by apophenia » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:29 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
apophenia wrote:Meh. I'm unimpressed with the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. I won't claim to fully understand it, but it looks to have holes that you could drive a truck through. And the divided opinions on the subject are plenty of evidence of that. Drawing test subjects in the control condition from different conditions than those in the test condition? I don't see how you could make a silk purse out of that sow's ear.

(ETA: Initial response scrapped. I'm not reading closely at all tonight. Anyway. Will see what Rushton says.)


(ETA: Oh, and regarding coming over to the dark side, I'm not particularly concerned with this area of psychology as I'm more concerned with things like cognitive bias and general theory of mind; whether there is or isn't a racial difference in intelligence doesn't affect my work at all.)
But cognitive bias varies among ethnic groups, so if you don't take that into account your work could be fundamentally flawed.
Do you have a specific example?


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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:22 pm

A critique of Rushton's views can be read here.

The one article I've read of Rushton's I found unconvincing. Aside from the issues with his sources Apophenia mentions, his reasoning is shoddy.
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Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Tyrannical » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:13 pm

apophenia wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:
apophenia wrote:Meh. I'm unimpressed with the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. I won't claim to fully understand it, but it looks to have holes that you could drive a truck through. And the divided opinions on the subject are plenty of evidence of that. Drawing test subjects in the control condition from different conditions than those in the test condition? I don't see how you could make a silk purse out of that sow's ear.

(ETA: Initial response scrapped. I'm not reading closely at all tonight. Anyway. Will see what Rushton says.)


(ETA: Oh, and regarding coming over to the dark side, I'm not particularly concerned with this area of psychology as I'm more concerned with things like cognitive bias and general theory of mind; whether there is or isn't a racial difference in intelligence doesn't affect my work at all.)
But cognitive bias varies among ethnic groups, so if you don't take that into account your work could be fundamentally flawed.
Do you have a specific example?
Nothing more than what a cursory Google glance has given me. If cognitive bias is your area, you must know of some studies where it has been tested if their is variance amongst ethnic groups.

Rushton isn't any lone-wolf nut scientist, he's the current president of The Pioneer Fund too.
http://www.pioneerfund.org/
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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