News coverage

[Chris Wilkins]

Hi Guys,

Introducing myself. I am Chris Wilkins, and a journalist, that DanDare mentioned in a previous post. I have to say up front I was never a member of the RDF, but DanDare, a good friend of mine, was and informed me of this situation.

Since then I have written about it (http://www.casualravings.com) and done some of my own investigations, including contacting the mainstream media who, as a consequence, may be thinking about taking a look at this situation. When they publish something I will post it back here (assuming they do).

Thus this post. I also wish to state I am not taking sides in this.

I can say that the "other side's" perspective, whether you disagree with it or not, is that they had to do this for technical reasons and then you all behaved badly, especially due to the language used. They also are of the opinion (now don't get mad at me. I am only the messenger) that this is a small matter which will blow over, that you have overstated your importance to RDF, and that basically if you all leave RDF will not suffer one jot as in time others will replace you. Again, please don't get mad at me.

So to get some concrete facts about this is from all of you; how many of there are you that feel this strongly about what has happened? Does anyone have any numbers? And, this is a difficult one to measure, how will the RDF be affected by your departure? Will it continue on its merry way without you, or will it indeed be greatly diminshed?

I have other questions for you but I daresay this will do for now.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Comte de Saint-Germain]

I think it is important to say that it's not merely about replacing members. In less than a month over 10 GB of information will be erased by Richard Dawkins, an amount comparable to wikipedia, which included a great amount of posts on evolutionary theory, other science and philosophy. It's not just about the question whether it can be replaced - science textbooks can be replaced/rewritten, does that mean we should burn them?

Also, I would point out much of the harsh language was a result not of the announcement of change, but how the staff was treated and how a thread with criticism was deleted and posting rights rescinded. The harsh language followed draconian measures. Cause and effect have been mixed up by Richard Dawkins' statement on the forum.

[Harmless Eccentric]

I tend to agree that it will pass, one way or another, and that others will use the new software if we don't.

But how could the bad language have caused the shutdown, when the bad language happened after the shutdown, and in response to it? That's confusing.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I tend to agree that it will pass, one way or another, and that others will use the new software if we don't.

But how could the bad language have caused the shutdown, when the bad language happened after the shutdown, and in response to it? That's confusing.

Carefully blended chronology, nothing new there. Josh is rewriting history to fit his mission. Orwell would be pleased.

[klr]

Hi Guys,

Introducing myself. I am Chris Wilkins, and a journalist, that DanDare mentioned in a previous post. I have to say up front I was never a member of the RDF, but DanDare, a good friend of mine, was and informed me of this situation.

Since then I have written about it (http://www.casualravings.com) and done some of my own investigations, including contacting the mainstream media who, as a consequence, may be thinking about taking a look at this situation. When they publish something I will post it back here (assuming they do).

Thus this post. I also wish to state I am not taking sides in this.

I can say that the "other side's" perspective, whether you disagree with it or not, is that they had to do this for technical reasons and then you all behaved badly, especially due to the language used. They also are of the opinion (now don't get mad at me. I am only the messenger) that this is a small matter which will blow over, that you have overstated your importance to RDF, and that basically if you all leave RDF will not suffer one jot as in time others will replace you. Again, please don't get mad at me.

So to get some concrete facts about this is from all of you; how many of there are you that feel this strongly about what has happened? Does anyone have any numbers? And, this is a difficult one to measure, how will the RDF be affected by your departure? Will it continue on its merry way without you, or will it indeed be greatly diminshed?

I have other questions for you but I daresay this will do for now.

Cheers,

Chris.

RD.net will by definition be a very different place. Essentially, the entire forum is being dropped, with it's content being lost for good - contrary to explicit assurances given to forum staff and forum members. The forum accounted for the vast bulking of posting activity on RD.net. I can't remember the breakdown, but the "Front Page" - where posted articles are commented on - has only a fraction of the traffic and active users. Flora (ex-Topsy, RD.net forum admin) will have more numbers on this.

I support Richard Dawkins' right to redefine the focus and goal of his web site as he sees fit. It is after all his money. What I most certainly do not agree with is the implementation - for want of a better term.

[virphen]

I'm not going to get mad at you.

I do hope you're prepared to wade through a pile of evidence, because you'll have it coming out of your ears if you are willing to go through it.

I can't answer for numbers - I know there are a lot of refugees out there, hundreds have turned up here, but who can speak for how angry each one may or may not be?

I can say that I think the "other side" (crap term, but hey) is right in suggesting that the effect on RDF will not be that great. At least not obviously.

If I can say for myself the complaints are thus:

1. The staff of the RD.Net forums were treated with absolute disrespect. They volunteered thousands of hours of their time, only to discover that they had been misled and were dumped at the drop of a hat. Without a word of thanks for their efforts. Just an arrogant, intimidatory message. That got a lot of people mad, because we all understood what a lot of work it took for them all.

2. The RDF techs seemed to do everything they could possibly do to stop us from meeting up in other places. We couldn't post. The PM system was set so we couldn't send more than a few messages a day. It was extremely distressing to think that we'd be unable to even say goodbye to friends we had made on those forums. As it happens, through the sterling efforts of many we have been lucky enough to meet up with many of the people we cared about. But no thanks to RDF.

Everything else is to me, relatively small potatoes. Sure they were rude. People make mistakes. Sure the reply posted by Dawkins (or in his name) is extremely misleading and is a quote mine. Sure it looks like somone on RDF had something to hide by the way admin logs were tampered with.

But it all comes down to good people, really good people, being treated shamefully poorly.

[Ayaan]

Hello, Chris Wilkins. I am a former admin over at the Richard Dawkins forum. If you want to get "the other side" of the story, here is a good place to start: http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... open-soon/ I watched events unfold and know what happened behind the scenes also. Peter Harrison has done an excellent job of covering the event.

While I agree completely that Richard Dawkins has the right to do whatever he wishes with his site, the way the matter was handled is a textbook example of how NOT to do it.

[klr]

Chris,

You need to check out these two blog entries by Peter Harrison, another ex-admin from RD.net:

http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... open-soon/

http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... m-closure/

These are possibly the best summaries available to date.

EDIT: Snap, sciwoman beat me to it!

[Ayaan]

Chris,

You need to check out these two blog entries by Peter Harrison, another ex-admin from RD.net:

http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... open-soon/

http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... m-closure/

These are possibly the best summaries available to date.

EDIT: Snap, sciwoman beat me to it!

I forgot about the second one.

[Mysturji]

2. The RDF techs seemed to do everything they could possibly do to stop us from meeting up in other places. We couldn't post. The PM system was set so we couldn't send more than a few messages a day. It was extremely distressing to think that we'd be unable to even say goodbye to friends we had made on those forums. As it happens, through the sterling efforts of many we have been lucky enough to meet up with many of the people we cared about. But no thanks to RDF.

Not to mention the fact that all signatures were disabled to stop people saying anything... well, anything.

I'll add my voice to the general consensus that it isn't so much what was done, but the way it was done, and how the reaction to it was handled. Timonen has all the people skills of a demented shark.
Also, it's not that we have overestimated our importance to RDF.
RDF has underestimated the importance of its forum to the wwworld at large. A great resource is being torn up and thrown away.

[Chris Wilkins]

So who thinks that the RDF will be greatly depleted? Will it?

Will this have a bad impact on the discussions that Richard Dawkins has formed over the last few years? That of a scientific and athiest stand against religion and creationism?

That is, if this dimishes his reputation and his support base, surely it has to impact the message that "evolution is real", that the flintstones is not a documentary?

I have even heard this might have a negative impact on the Atheist Convention in Oz? If so, what?

[fredbear]

it seems to me that as individuals we are irrelevant. what will be lost as i understand it is the human side of the forum which is the more important aspect here.
if the forum becomes a science only discussion site then there will be no community. the community i witnessed provided an oasis of advice and support for many from all over the world. i was involved on a thread offering advice and support for a young boy in iran. i came to the forum for advice. i was referred by the secular society who could not think of anywhere more suitable to send me when i was very concerned that my ex was indoctrinating our 2 young boys with his new found pentecostal beliefs. i received measured and valuable advice and support from a community that not only understood my concerns but offered sensible suggestions and a calm support network.
there must be many human stories out there. maybe it would be worth collating them.
i believe richard dawkins is misguided in dismissing this community.

[Chris Wilkins]

it seems to me that as individuals we are irrelevant. what will be lost as i understand it is the human side of the forum which is the more important aspect here.
if the forum becomes a science only discussion site then there will be no community. the community i witnessed provided an oasis of advice and support for many from all over the world. i was involved on a thread offering advice and support for a young boy in iran. i came to the forum for advice. i was referred by the secular society who could not think of anywhere more suitable to send me when i was very concerned that my ex was indoctrinating our 2 young boys with his new found pentecostal beliefs. i received measured and valuable advice and support from a community that not only understood my concerns but offered sensible suggestions and a calm support network.
there must be many human stories out there. maybe it would be worth collating them.
i believe richard dawkins is misguided in dismissing this community.

Now that is a wonderful story, and definitely something that may interest newspapers.

[Harmless Eccentric]

That is, if this dimishes his reputation and his support base, surely it has to impact the message that "evolution is real", that the flintstones is not a documentary?

Er, no. Richard Dawkins and his staff behaving badly on the internet is briefly thrilling, but it isn't actually powerful enough to stop evolution. I hope that isn't your angle on this story? Some people will go back to the old forum, some will find new ones, some will get over their anger, some will never buy a Dawkins book again... but I don't think anyone is going to say, "That's it, I'm going to stop thinking evolution happens! That'll show him!" That would just be stupid. Like ceasing to believe in gravity because I'm pissed off that I dropped my sandwich.

[fredbear]

it seems to me that as individuals we are irrelevant. what will be lost as i understand it is the human side of the forum which is the more important aspect here.
if the forum becomes a science only discussion site then there will be no community. the community i witnessed provided an oasis of advice and support for many from all over the world. i was involved on a thread offering advice and support for a young boy in iran. i came to the forum for advice. i was referred by the secular society who could not think of anywhere more suitable to send me when i was very concerned that my ex was indoctrinating our 2 young boys with his new found pentecostal beliefs. i received measured and valuable advice and support from a community that not only understood my concerns but offered sensible suggestions and a calm support network.
there must be many human stories out there. maybe it would be worth collating them.
i believe richard dawkins is misguided in dismissing this community.

Now that is a wonderful story, and definitely something that may interest newspapers.

well i tend to agree!
how anoying that i now need to head off to my portrait course. i'll log in later this evening.