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Abortion USA
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Re: Abortion USA
Abortion services are rooted within sets of social conditions, and economic and political contexts. Most reasonable people take abortion and related issues seriously and are aware of the moral and ethical conflicts. Declarative moral strictures issued on the behalf of others are cheap, and too easy to make - particularly when they have no consequence for the person issuing them. Addressing the actual situations people find themselves in is a lot more demanding.aufbahrung wrote:Abortion should be banned except in very specific circumstances. The rights of the unborn are paramount. I knowI'm on the wrong side of history right now, but in the fullness of time the temporary consensus today will be seen for the aberration it is - a result of overpopulation rather than rational thinking. When population bottoms out at around 500million globally the sense in protecting the rights of the unborn will become fairly apparent. Whose gonna plough the fields with a ever decreasing population after all?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Abortion USA
The moral and ethical conflicts, at least in the first two trimesters, are rooted in religion. If you take the religious dicta out you finish up with something like this:Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:31 amAbortion services are rooted within sets of social conditions, and economic and political contexts. Most reasonable people take abortion and related issues seriously and are aware of the moral and ethical conflicts. Declarative moral strictures issued on the behalf of others are cheap, and too easy to make - particularly when they have no consequence for the person issuing them. Addressing the actual situations people find themselves in is a lot more demanding.aufbahrung wrote:Abortion should be banned except in very specific circumstances. The rights of the unborn are paramount. I knowI'm on the wrong side of history right now, but in the fullness of time the temporary consensus today will be seen for the aberration it is - a result of overpopulation rather than rational thinking. When population bottoms out at around 500million globally the sense in protecting the rights of the unborn will become fairly apparent. Whose gonna plough the fields with a ever decreasing population after all?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: Abortion USA
Not sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Abortion USA
Cultural Christians, Muslims et cetera. That's why I wrote moral and ethical conflicts are rooted in religion rather than relevant only to believers in religion.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:59 amNot sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: Abortion USA
I take your point, but I still think there are some moral and ethical conflicts to address that are intrinsic to discussions on abortion that are not necessarily rooted in religious doctrine or religious cultural perspectives - at the very least there are some legitimate questions to address around the primacy of the rights of different actors and how they rub up against concepts like personhood, autonomy, the role of the state in determining the extent or bounds of rights, who gets them, who doesn't, or when and where the state can act for/against the protection of rights-holders, etc etc.Hermit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:31 amCultural Christians, Muslims et cetera. That's why I wrote moral and ethical conflicts are rooted in religion rather than relevant only to believers in religion.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:59 amNot sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Abortion USA
Someone asleep lacks awareness until morning. Is it OK to treat them as a late abortion because they are at a stage in their timeline of life when they ain't proper human? Not bothered, not my interest really, figure these arguments will resolve themselves though as humans die out and a lower population regains the general 'respect for life' before the vessel its carried in thing...you'll get the idea if you live through the cataclysm to see it...I reckon.
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Re: Abortion USA
That's a bizarre question. A sleeping human is a "proper human". A zygote, embryo or foetus may become a "proper human", but not before at least 20 weeks of gestation have passed.aufbahrung wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:00 pmSomeone asleep lacks awareness until morning. Is it OK to treat them as a late abortion because they are at a stage in their timeline of life when they ain't proper human?
When humans sleep they do not revert to being a zygote, embryo or foetus. If you kill them, you have killed human beings that have spent a third of their lives asleep.
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Re: Abortion USA
From the moment of conception the die is more or less cast regarding the lifeline, except for in cases of spontaneous natural abortion, so killing someone just because they are at the 'computer boot' stage of life is little different from when they are asleep. A stab in the back is a stab in the back whether poor man or Queen. Saying they died of old age? or no age to speak of? that's no moral excuse.
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Re: Abortion USA
When you perform an abortion you are not terminating someone. You abort a zygote, embryo or foetus. Objecting to abortions on the grounds that they will become human beings later on if no abortion is performed is nonsense.aufbahrung wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:20 amFrom the moment of conception the die is more or less cast regarding the lifeline, except for in cases of spontaneous natural abortion, so killing someone just because they are at the 'computer boot' stage of life is little different from when they are asleep.
Since you chose to mention being asleep again, let me reiterate: When you sleep you remain a human being. You do not regress to the non-human form of a zygote, embryo or foetus. It is OK to abort the latter. It is not OK to kill a sleeping human being.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: Abortion USA
Sorry. I somehow missed your post earlier.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:34 amI take your point, but I still think there are some moral and ethical conflicts to address that are intrinsic to discussions on abortion that are not necessarily rooted in religious doctrine or religious cultural perspectives - at the very least there are some legitimate questions to address around the primacy of the rights of different actors and how they rub up against concepts like personhood, autonomy, the role of the state in determining the extent or bounds of rights, who gets them, who doesn't, or when and where the state can act for/against the protection of rights-holders, etc etc.Hermit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:31 amCultural Christians, Muslims et cetera. That's why I wrote moral and ethical conflicts are rooted in religion rather than relevant only to believers in religion.Brian Peacock wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:59 amNot sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
Can you give me concrete examples of purely secular moral objections as they apply to the relationship between abortions on one side and the extent or bounds of rights, who gets them, who doesn't, or when and where the state can act for/against the protection of rights-holders, etc on the other? I mean, I know about eugenics, overreach by governments or family, etc etc. What I don't know is whether there are genuine, purely secular moral objections to the act of performing an abortion itself.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
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Re: Abortion USA
There's the aesthetic argument. The less abortion, the greater the population. The closer we come to the Bladerunner aesthetic. That's where I'm coming from partially. Don't get me wrong I've nothing against nature. Sooner we have a artificial sustained biosphere here the sooner we will on Mars. For me though. Aesthetics is a integral part of my decision making.
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Re: Abortion USA
What in the fuck are you talking about? I'm surprised Hermit made some sort of sense of the sleeping person thing. Made no sense to me.
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Re: Abortion USA
Let's just say I'm a biopath. And want to cross humans with other animals later. And kickstart a new biological revolution on the planet. So it's important to have has many around as possible so a few survive the coming die-off.pErvinalia wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:25 amWhat in the fuck are you talking about? I'm surprised Hermit made some sort of sense of the sleeping person thing. Made no sense to me.
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Re: Abortion USA
What?
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.
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