I know you're all tired of this, but ...

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rasetsu
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Re: I know you're all tired of this, but ...

Post by rasetsu » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 pm




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seabisquick
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Re: I know you're all tired of this, but ...

Post by seabisquick » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:11 am

I'm going to try and distill out what I believe are the arguments that PZ (and probably much of the Pharyngula Horde) would make in response. It would go too far to say I am advocating these arguments directly but rather that I am presenting to the best of my ability what I believe best represents their perspective. It is a poor substitute for the real thing I suppose, but you are not likely to get an answer, as I understand PZ's account here is deactivated, or deleted, or something. Perhaps, though, I can at least offer something in a less combative tone, which is more my style anyway.

#1 "Rape apologist"
Quoting PZ on FtB
An admin make a vile rape joke, followed by several pages of comments, the majority of which agree, approve, and amplify on the joke? I think it’s perfectly fair to characterize the culture of the forum as being pro-rape.

The people there could change that, you know…by like calling out the thugs who spew that kind of slime and making it clear that it will not be endorsed. Instead, they’re now fortifying themselves behind a wall of misogyny. Not impressed.
On the first page, comments #11 and #13 are the only ones that register a protest, out of 15. Majority approve and add to the fun; one exaggerates by making a gang rape “joke”. That’s not fact twisting, those are the facts.
PZ's point seems to be that the ratio of support to criticism for the OP within Rationalia was high, i.e., the community in general seemed OK with and participated in joking about raping someone, someone fairly specific. From PZ's perspective, joking about rape, especially in this way, contributes to rape culture and so people who claim to be rational, committed to social change, etc., have no business doing so. If you don't share PZ's understanding of rape culture then you might not see the harm in the joke. However, these ideas about rape culture are generally considered as fact at Pharyngula, and you may disagree there. My guess is that this one of the major gulfs in perspective which fueled this whole incident.

A second point that was made is that there seemed to be much more outrage at the criticism of Rationalia generally and Pappa/OP specifically than there was at the content of the OP. Put another way, the community seemed morally OK with joking about raping a skepchick but found criticism of joking about raping a skepchick worthy of outrage.

So I think the best answer I can offer is that if you couldn't be bothered to say anything against Pappa's joke but you do have it in you to protest the criticism of it, then you are more concerned with protecting rape culture than destroying it, which would make your actions (with regard to your participation in this forum) pro-rape rather than anti-rape. Not that you are advocating rape necessarily, but perhaps an apologist for those who use an excuse of humor to further ideas that are harmful to women and advance rape culture.

#2 "Cockroach"
My initial read on this was not that PZ was saying that Rationalia members were cockroaches, any more than he was saying the problem with Rationalia members was poor hygiene. It seemed to me that PZ was using a extreme example to point out what he saw as the absurdity of people complaining that the problem was him revealing something objectionable (a rape joke-friendly community) rather than the objectionable thing itself. Upon reflection, I think it's entirely possible he enjoyed the tweaking of egos that making this comparison accomplished, but it doesn't seem to me at all to be the primary point. He could have said, "dust bunnies aren't gross, looking under the couch to find them is immoral" to make his point but I don't think it would have had the same punch.

As to the question of standing by your friend, well, PZ says this
If I made such a “joke”, I would be eviscerated publicly, no matter how nice they thought I’d been before. There would be a massive exodus of people I respect, because they’d see it as a serious betrayal of principles that are held very dear here.

Apparently, those principles are not shared with rationalia.
Perhaps it might depend upon whether harshly criticizing your friend and making it clear you find his behavior repugnant is "standing by" him, in the sense that you are trying to help him see the error of his ways and correct it. In PZ's words, he would expect that sort of treatment from people he calls his friends. It may seem rather stern, but I think he would characterize this as a matter of integrity, not exempting himself from the standards he applies to others.

#3 "I disagree in the strongest terms with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it"
I think the general consensus at Pharyngula is that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from criticism—sometimes biting, harsh, savage criticism, but in the end speech with just as much right to exist as the OP. If I had to say it in Pharyngula vernacular, "Pappa had every right to make the rape joke, but he's an asshole for saying it, and we have the same right as him to say so." I think the "Pappa is an asshole" part of the message was received loud and clear at Rationalia. I think the Horde enjoys the fact that their voices outnumber those here, and the feeding frenzy there is quite a spectacle, so it may very much feel like an unfair fight. It's a common complaint that people feel "shouted down" by the Horde. But they would insist that they have not prevented you from having your say in public, but that their say is better, and that isn't injustice, simply fact.

Also, to quote PZ on FtB on the commitment to absolute freedom of speech:
[Pappa] Something you all need to understand is that while I am 100% supportive of matters of equality, I also absolutely support the right of free speech, even when it is extremely distasteful.
Oh, wait. Then why did you write to me demanding that I remove that comment that disclosed your name and address*, under threat of taking legal action against me? I don’t think that word “absolutely” means what you seem to think it means.
Oh, and hey, what about this?
Should we sue PZ for libel, like, just for a laugh?
Your commitment to that absolute right to free speech seems to be a bit, you know, elastic.
With respect to the banning, as I believe Wumbologist was banned on Pharyngula, PZ says openly that it's his site and he does not think it violates principles of free speech to do so, as he is not trying to shut down anyone on Rationalia or any other forum that he doesn't have admin control of, and anyone can speak freely elsewhere. This seems to cause some of the biggest meta-arguments (not just in this matter but in many in the Pharyngula-vs.-the-world space), as banning someone where the majority of the debate is taking place of course feels like censorship.

4. "Thought policing"
I will confess to possibly being somewhat obtuse because this question was a little hard for me to understand. I think you are saying that PZ is using the kind of thought-control tactics used by religious institutions/organizations/cults. What specific things you mean I am not sure. For instance, if you mean the kind of dehumanizing/demeaning language used to bully someone into submission, I think there are a couple of arguments made: 1) PZ says "this is a rude blog", and if you don't like that, don't participate. 2) Calling someone a misogynist or pro-rape isn't a demeaning or put-down, because you are describing their behavior. Some/many extend this to say, saying someone is being an asshole is also describing their behavior, not attacking them personally.

I hesitate to go further on #4 because I'm feeling more and more like I don't know what you mean exactly. Sorry, I'm not dodging the question, it just seems vague and I'd be making too many assumptions about what you are trying to say.

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Re: I know you're all tired of this, but ...

Post by Rum » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:18 am

This is all done now. Moving on is what is happening.

Welcome. I hope you hang around. This is a damn good forum.

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Re: I know you're all tired of this, but ...

Post by rachelbean » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:17 am

seabisquick, everything you brought up has been replied to and replied to again. I don't think many people feel like continuing to re-hash the same points (though I could be wrong, and if so, they'll be along), but this thread links back to the old one as well as continuing the discussion if you wish to: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5#p1224725
lordpasternack wrote:Yeah - I fuckin' love oppressin' ma wimmin, like I love chowin' on ma bacon and tuggin' on ma ol' cock… ;)
Pappa wrote:God is a cunt! I wank over pictures of Jesus! I love Darwin so much I'd have sex with his bones!!!!
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