First reaction by Richard Dawkins.

[eXcommunicate]

The more comments I read from RDF exiles, on here, the more I'm thinking...."wow, it's no surprise that they wanted to cull that community..."

WELL, GO EAT A DICK. j/k m8

But seriously, I think you're not giving full consideration to the timeline of events leading to the whole explosion of angry comments. Certainly you agree that Richard's "response letter" about the whole thing only served to stoke the fire? At any rate, I am tiring of this whole thing, but I think it will be all blown over by the weekend.

[tnjrp]

@ Chauncey Gardner
Let me oblige you by saying that there's quite a bit of shit-stirring in your post you could've left out if you wanted. I'm also pretty sure you'll get a full validation of your opinion of us RDF refugees 'ere long when someone from the "truly angry mob" turns up.

I can however agree on that

Nobody comes out of this looking good. Josh could have managed the transition better and the RD.net community could have been more mature and rational in the way they responded

I would go a bit further to say however that it only not seems Josh Timonen could've managed the transition better, it seems he couldn't have managed it much worse.

RDF had immense number of members (I've never been active on a larger forum and I don't think I'll ever will be either) and a huge lot of them (tho a small percentage of the apparent numbers) were actually also active. Forum communities aren't know to be the epitome of rationality when the forum's suddenly yanked from under them. It's quite obvious a lot of folks are going to come out of that spitting blood, and a corresponding knee jerk reaction on Dr. Dawkins's side doesn't make him look too shiny either.

Everyone involved looses, indeed.

[klr]

@ Chauncey Gardner
Let me oblige you by saying that there's quite a bit of shit-stirring in your post you could've left out if you wanted. I'm also pretty sure you'll get a full validation of your opinion of us RDF refugees 'ere long when someone from the "truly angry mob" turns up.

I can however agree on that

Nobody comes out of this looking good. Josh could have managed the transition better and the RD.net community could have been more mature and rational in the way they responded

I would go a bit further to say however that it only not seems Josh Timonen could've managed the transition better, it seems he couldn't have managed it much worse.

RDF had immense number of members (I've never been active on a larger forum and I don't think I'll ever will be either) and a huge lot of them (tho a small percentage of the apparent numbers) were actually also active. Forum communities aren't know to be the epitome of rationality when the forum's suddenly yanked from under them. It's quite obvious a lot of folks are going to come out of that spitting blood, and a corresponding knee jerk reaction on Dr. Dawkins's side doesn't make him look too shiny either.

Everyone involved looses, indeed.

+1

[Chauncey Gardner]

But seriously, I think you're not giving full consideration to the timeline of events leading to the whole explosion of angry comments. Certainly you agree that Richard's "response letter" about the whole thing only served to stoke the fire? At any rate, I am tiring of this whole thing, but I think it will be all blown over by the weekend.

On the contrary, I am fully aware of the timeline. The RDF team didn't want to pull the plug on the forum, they wanted to leave it there for another month (30 days)..and probably archive it. As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum. The RDF clearly reacted as quickly as they could to avoid complete meltdown. Some have twisted that forum-fire-fighting by the RDF team as some sort of moderator massacre. That's not a rational way of looking at it.

I'm not suggesting the RDF team have handled things well - they clearly haven't and Richard could do with some assistance on community management (and basic public relations skills) but in many respects it's laid bare what some elements the RDF community are like...and it's not pretty.

by all means leave it until after the weekend...I would hope that the majority of idiots who have been back-stabbing Josh and Richard will take a hard look at themselves and realise that they too could have handled their reaction in a more mature and rational way.

on a positive note...I'm excited about the new RDF...I'm hoping most of the idiots feck off to some other forum (not rationalia.com hopefuly) and revel in their sanctimonious self-righteous short-sighted stupidity.

[InYourFaceNewYorker]

But seriously, I think you're not giving full consideration to the timeline of events leading to the whole explosion of angry comments. Certainly you agree that Richard's "response letter" about the whole thing only served to stoke the fire? At any rate, I am tiring of this whole thing, but I think it will be all blown over by the weekend.

On the contrary, I am fully aware of the timeline. The RDF team didn't want to pull the plug on the forum, they wanted to leave it there for another month (30 days)..and probably archive it. As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum. The RDF clearly reacted as quickly as they could to avoid complete meltdown. Some have twisted that forum-fire-fighting by the RDF team as some sort of moderator massacre. That's not a rational way of looking at it.

I'm not suggesting the RDF team have handled things well - they clearly haven't and Richard could do with some assistance on community management (and basic public relations skills) but in many respects it's laid bare what some elements the RDF community are like...and it's not pretty.

by all means leave it until after the weekend...I would hope that the majority of idiots who have been back-stabbing Josh and Richard will take a hard look at themselves and realise that they too could have handled their reaction in a more mature and rational way.

on a positive note...I'm excited about the new RDF...I'm hoping most of the idiots feck off to some other forum (not rationalia.com hopefuly) and revel in their sanctimonious self-righteous short-sighted stupidity.

THANK YOU

[Mazille]

But seriously, I think you're not giving full consideration to the timeline of events leading to the whole explosion of angry comments. Certainly you agree that Richard's "response letter" about the whole thing only served to stoke the fire? At any rate, I am tiring of this whole thing, but I think it will be all blown over by the weekend.

On the contrary, I am fully aware of the timeline. The RDF team didn't want to pull the plug on the forum, they wanted to leave it there for another month (30 days)..and probably archive it. As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum. The RDF clearly reacted as quickly as they could to avoid complete meltdown. Some have twisted that forum-fire-fighting by the RDF team as some sort of moderator massacre. That's not a rational way of looking at it.

No, you are completely and utterly wrong. We mods stood up for the community, which was later twisted into us being "petulant children" (are the Ratz-people pissed if I borrow their name? ) wreaking havoc out of pure spite. I suggest you read Peter Harrison's blog-post on the matter, as this shows you how it really happened.

[virphen]

On the contrary, I am fully aware of the timeline. The RDF team didn't want to pull the plug on the forum, they wanted to leave it there for another month (30 days)..and probably archive it. As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum.

No, you don't understand it. The "havoc" was 2-part. One, posting the communication they'd received AFTER forum members had clearly gained the mistaken view that the staff had been in on the decision. Secondly, after all their attempts to communicate with the techies had been ignored, they said they would stop providing moderator services.

What a pack of arseholes! How dare they stop working for free just because some people treated them like shit?

[eXcommunicate]

But seriously, I think you're not giving full consideration to the timeline of events leading to the whole explosion of angry comments. Certainly you agree that Richard's "response letter" about the whole thing only served to stoke the fire? At any rate, I am tiring of this whole thing, but I think it will be all blown over by the weekend.

On the contrary, I am fully aware of the timeline. The RDF team didn't want to pull the plug on the forum, they wanted to leave it there for another month (30 days)..and probably archive it. As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum. The RDF clearly reacted as quickly as they could to avoid complete meltdown. Some have twisted that forum-fire-fighting by the RDF team as some sort of moderator massacre. That's not a rational way of looking at it.

I'm not suggesting the RDF team have handled things well - they clearly haven't and Richard could do with some assistance on community management (and basic public relations skills) but in many respects it's laid bare what some elements the RDF community are like...and it's not pretty.

by all means leave it until after the weekend...I would hope that the majority of idiots who have been back-stabbing Josh and Richard will take a hard look at themselves and realise that they too could have handled their reaction in a more mature and rational way.

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but me and tens of thousands of forum members weren't a part of the whole dust-up prior to the ultimate shutting down of the forum. It was an awful lot like an, "a pox on all their houses!" kind of move by the admin team. Richard in his letter also referenced comments that occurred after the forums closure to justify its closure. This is not rational. Anyway, when I say "blowing over by the weekend" I mean heads will cool and I hope we'll be talking about much more constructive things.

Oh, and this...

on a positive note...I'm excited about the new RDF...I'm hoping most of the idiots feck off to some other forum (not rationalia.com hopefuly) and revel in their sanctimonious self-righteous short-sighted stupidity.

...did not help your case.

[Mr.Samsa]

As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum. The RDF clearly reacted as quickly as they could to avoid complete meltdown.

What do you mean by "causing havoc"?

The only thing that 'members with privileges' (assuming you mean the mods here) did was to present evidence that they were as much in the dark as the rest of the membership, as they were under some heavy criticism when Josh broke the news. When the rational and mature thread started asking questions of Josh and criticising his new ideas for the forum - he started deleting members and the entire thread.

Remember, no insults were thrown at Josh or RD BEFORE the forum was shut down or before members and posts were deleted. The insults came AFTER the forum was shut down, the private messaging feature was turned off, members and posts deleted, and archive programs were tricked into downloading videos of Rick Astley.

The only people who could argue that they had insults thrown at them before the forum was shut down were the mods. If people had been insulting Josh and Andrew before the shut down, then don't you think they would have used those quotes to give to Dawkins for his letter? The fact that the only insults they could find came from misrepresentations of posts made here should be evidence enough that Josh's child-like actions were unjustified.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum...

Please give us your definition of "havoc", just for the record.


Are questions "havoc"?
Is criticism "havoc"?
Is clarifying what the staff did-or-did-not know "havoc"?
Was trying to point people in the direction of another forum "havoc"?
Is personal communication "havoc"?
Is trying to archive content "havoc"?
Is trying to seek clarification from the website owner "havoc"?
Is protesting account deletions "havoc"?

Please do tell us.

[klr]

But seriously, I think you're not giving full consideration to the timeline of events leading to the whole explosion of angry comments. Certainly you agree that Richard's "response letter" about the whole thing only served to stoke the fire? At any rate, I am tiring of this whole thing, but I think it will be all blown over by the weekend.

On the contrary, I am fully aware of the timeline. The RDF team didn't want to pull the plug on the forum, they wanted to leave it there for another month (30 days)..and probably archive it.

1. There was nothing in the communique which indicated that the forum would be accessible in any shape or form after this 30 days had elapsed. Indeed, the communique was quite clear that it would not be available after that.

2. This was in complete opposition to what had been promised to both staff and users as recently as a couple of weeks before, namely that the existing forum content would be preserved after the move to the new forum.

As I understand it, they pulled the plug when community members with privileges started causing havoc on the forum. The RDF clearly reacted as quickly as they could to avoid complete meltdown. Some have twisted that forum-fire-fighting by the RDF team as some sort of moderator massacre. That's not a rational way of looking at it.

3. Nonsense I'm afraid, complete and utter nonsense. The only people who abused privileges were the site admin and his assistant, who (inter alia):

* Threatened staff to not facilitate users by offered information about other forums (that and other things).
* Locked the forum at the first sign of (mild) dissent, and then deleted the thread in question.
* Deleted the forum accounts and posts of anyone who dared to voice their disagreement on the Front Page or by other means.
* Disabled the display of signatures, so that people would be less aware of alternative forums
* Set a long time limit between sending PMs, so that people were hindered in communicating with each other.
* Erased the forum admin logs to attempt to cover their tracks.

Is that enough for you?

I'm not suggesting the RDF team have handled things well - they clearly haven't and Richard could do with some assistance on community management (and basic public relations skills) but in many respects it's laid bare what some elements the RDF community are like...and it's not pretty.

by all means leave it until after the weekend...I would hope that the majority of idiots who have been back-stabbing Josh and Richard will take a hard look at themselves and realise that they too could have handled their reaction in a more mature and rational way.

on a positive note...I'm excited about the new RDF...I'm hoping most of the idiots feck off to some other forum (not rationalia.com hopefuly) and revel in their sanctimonious self-righteous short-sighted stupidity.

Most of "the idiots" are already here. As for "sanctimonious", I fear you may have just given a good demonstration of that. Please read the facts first - they are readily available here and elsewhere - and don't rely on the official line.

[Chauncey Gardner]

@ Chauncey Gardner
Let me oblige you by saying that there's quite a bit of shit-stirring in your post you could've left out if you wanted. I'm also pretty sure you'll get a full validation of your opinion of us RDF refugees 'ere long when someone from the "truly angry mob" turns up.

hold on a second...let me get this straight....you're saying I'm the one shit-stirring?

please. I ask you.

it only not seems Josh Timonen could've managed the transition better, it seems he couldn't have managed it much worse.

you don't know that's the case but you are happy to believe that is the case based on a flurry of vitriolic bitter and some twisted comments by people who weren't sitting right beside josh for the last week.

curious that. innit?

Considering the RD foundation is all about evidence based logic, I won't embarrass you by pointing out how ironic it is that you would be SO judgemental based on the accounts of people who weren't there.

It's quite obvious a lot of folks are going to come out of that spitting blood, and a corresponding knee jerk reaction on Dr. Dawkins's side doesn't make him look too shiny either.

Everyone involved looses, indeed.

in the short term, yes, but, in the long term ,I'm not so sure.

I have a huge amount of respect for Richard Dawkins as a scientist, author and individual. The sort of immature back stabbing shit stirring slurry being spouted on here hasn't changed that. RD is smart and I'm guessing he will be more selective in who can become a moderator on the new RDF...which is actually a good and positive thing. I've read a lot of blogs and comments about the changes at RDF..many appear to be ex-moderators who are understandably upset at losing their privileges and standing/power within the comunity....which is one thing...but some reacted in totally the wrong way and are whipping up a mob-mentality with the rest of the community that might work on some...but not the intelligent ones. So, I reckon the new RDF community will be well worth joining and will thrive...

just saying.

[95Theses]

The only people who could argue that they had insults thrown at them before the forum was shut down were the mods. If people had been insulting Josh and Andrew before the shut down, then don't you think they would have used those quotes to give to Dawkins for his letter? The fact that the only insults they could find came from misrepresentations of posts made here should be evidence enough that Josh's child-like actions were unjustified.

This is the key point.

If the posts and thread on RDF were so terrible it required the forum shutting down immediately, why not use examples of these if they ever existed?

The fact that they had to go on a Quote mining expedition to another forum, after RDF was shut down tells us that that this was the best they could do to find examples of the terrible comments by the members and staff.

Even more telling is that the Admin, Josh, had to expunge the audit trail of his actions from the server, can anyone come up with a valid reason for wanting to hide what you have done that doesn't involve covering up his own misdeeds, if he was in the right, why hide it?

[fuck you & fuck your god]

In the last few weeks how much time have the mods been putting in working on projects for the switchcover at some direction from Josh et al. who knew it was totally wasted, useless, futile effort? Were they laughing the whole time? Look again at that heads up from a few weeks ago, I wish I had a copy. The condescension in it now appears as foreshadow.

[klr]

In the last few weeks how much time have the mods been putting in working on projects for the switchcover at some direction from Josh et al. who knew it was totally wasted, useless, futile effort? Were they laughing the whole time? Look again at that heads up from a few weeks ago, I wish I had a copy. The condescension in it now appears as foreshadow.

In response to the original post by Nineberry:

Subject: New Forum, please keep the old content available

Hi

There's rumours that a new forum software will be used on here sometime in the future. If this is true, I would like to ask for two things:

1. Please keep the old content available somewhere. At least offer the content of posts via download or something. Over the last three years lots of useful information and facts has been collected over here. I frequently use past information from the rd.net forum for researching current issues.

2. Please make sure user names are protected and that it is not possible someone uses a user name on the new forum that someone else had used on the old forum.

Thanks! :toast:

... came this:

Subject: New Forum, please keep the old content available

The tone of some of these messages directed toward the Mods and Admins does sound rather hostile and to be frank - the Mods and Admins have done nothing but be 100% supportive of the forum and it's membership.

The search facility was removed due to the WHOLE site (as well as RDF and OUT) grinding to a halt every 5 minutes - including - the front page, the store and other things.

We have been working on compartmentalising the sites and store for the latter part of last year - which we have done so that if one site is bottle necking it won't bring everything to a halt. It's nothing to do with being hard nosed it's about making informed decisions on what we do know - I am sorry that some of the forum membership feel hurt by not being included in the decision making loop but that's not your concern.

To answer NineBerry the criteria of 1) and 2) will be met.

There's no alarm necessary - just go about your business as usual.