The Civil War Within Skepticism

[Hermit]

Sam Harris:

Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

Sam Harris is advocating torture and he also does advocate the use of nuclear force against Muslims.

"Advocating torture" ≠ "advocat[ing] the widespread use of torture"
"Nuclear force" ≠ "a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world"

Regardless of his stance on these issues, which I've not looked up yet but am now curious to investigate, the point he appears to be making here is that his opinions have been polarised to extremes and (presumably) taken way beyond their original scope and context, by the same kind of people who conflate a tasteless joke to an actual threat of violence.

Good point. I should have said Harris is in favour of torture and preemptive nuclear strikes under specific circumstances.

[Audley Strange]

Look who's unwittingly joined the fray, with some class I think.

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/6467 ... sophers-do

It's like being a voyeur at an intervention.

[charlou]

unwittingly

Reads quite deliberate (written with his usual deliberation), to me.

[JimC]

PZ losing friends fast...

Sam Harris:

It is difficult to overlook the role that blog comments play in all this. Having a blog and building a large community of readers can destroy a person’s intellectual integrity—as appears to have happened in the case of PZ Myers. Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

I hear PZ is trying to reform his blog cuz of all his asshole commenters. Doubt that'll ever work, he's one of them.

Sam gets a lot of grief from the Left wingers, along with Ayaan Hirsi-Ali and Salman Rushdie, because they don't "respect" Islam. It's o.k. to scorn and offend Christians, but Islam is a minority group, according to folks like PZ Myers, and if one scorns and offends Islam then one is associating oneself with right wing racists.

Harris was Hitchensian when it came to Islam and the war on terrorism, so, of course, the rabid Lefties like Myers and his ilk have "concerns" about him...he doesn't fit.

You are right, but that doesn't mean it's not possible to criticise him in a measured way if one thinks his suggestions go a little far. But the extreme liberal/left will not criticise in a measured way, they'll just flail around with absolutist generalisations.

[Audley Strange]

unwittingly

Reads quite deliberate (written with his usual deliberation), to me.

Oh it's deliberate yes, however I meant more that by him addressing the situation reasonably he still has hope he can appeal to Myers reason. I'm saddened to say I think it will fall on deaf ears and perhaps provoke another over-reaction from Myers and his courtiers that he wasn't foreseeing. He seems genuinely to think the best of people.

[Robert_S]

He seems genuinely to think the best of people.

The RIGHT people.

[Audley Strange]

Heh, yeah. Fair enough.

[Robert_S]

Many of the members of here and RatSkep were the wrong kind apparently.

[Audley Strange]

You know it always seemed to me that there was more to the whole RDF thing collapsing than just he woke up one day and went "fuck this, let's piss off people." However I know little about it other than how certain places tied themselves in knots trying to break their own rules when Josh Timenon joined and revealed to me yet again why I left RDF in the first place.

It's funny (curious) thinking about it now about RDF and how popular Krauss, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Randi and Dawkins were and how over the last year some of them have been pulled into this stupid controversy and villified.

I love a bit of Iconoclasm and find it interesting who's doing it and for what ends.

[JimC]

You know it always seemed to me that there was more to the whole RDF thing collapsing than just he woke up one day and went "fuck this, let's piss off people." However I know little about it other than how certain places tied themselves in knots trying to break their own rules when Josh Timenon joined and revealed to me yet again why I left RDF in the first place.

It's funny (curious) thinking about it now about RDF and how popular Krauss, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, Randi and Dawkins were and how over the last year some of them have been pulled into this stupid controversy and villified.

I love a bit of Iconoclasm and find it interesting who's doing it and for what ends.

The Vatican has a "Special Duties" squad whose job is to undermine the atheist movement, using all the subtle wiles of its Jesuit Commando members....

[Jaygray]

Good post from RD. Will it neutralise the P Z Myers acid, or cause him to eject still more semi-digested matter? We wait with baited breath...

[Jaygray]

Sam Harris:

Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

Sam Harris is advocating torture and he also does advocate the use of nuclear force against Muslims.

"Advocating torture" ≠ "advocat[ing] the widespread use of torture"
"Nuclear force" ≠ "a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world"

Regardless of his stance on these issues, which I've not looked up yet but am now curious to investigate, the point he appears to be making here is that his opinions have been polarised to extremes and (presumably) taken way beyond their original scope and context, by the same kind of people who conflate a tasteless joke to an actual threat of violence.

Good point. I should have said Harris is in favour of torture and preemptive nuclear strikes under specific circumstances.

Harris uses hypotheticals which question if circumstances exist where torture and first strike can ever be ethically justified: These are worthwhile questions to ask. No evidence supports that he is personally in favour of any of these scenarios.

[Thinking Aloud]

He comments on his stance on both here: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text ... troversy2/

[tantamount]

The Vatican has a "Special Duties" squad whose job is to undermine the atheist movement, using all the subtle wiles of its Jesuit Commando members....

Are you suggesting PZ is an undercover Jesuit operative?

It would explain a lot. He's exhibiting all the hallmarks of a false flag operation.

I should think his fellow travellers will be surprised when this gets out.

[Jaygray]

post made in error and deleted. Apologies