The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:20 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:Ironically, PZ was one of the "new atheists" (the aggressive, in your face folks who didn't care how rude and nasty they were to the religious). Now, PZ is part of the "answer to the new atheists", who demand to be treated respectfully and want nothing to do with rude people?

WTF? The lack of self-awareness is staggering.
1. He was always the red-headed stepchild of the real New Atheists -- a cut below D2H2 (Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens). He did not have the charisma or charm, or smarts, or education of any of them. He is a 2nd tier professor at a mediocre midwestern University. He didn't measure up to the heavy hitters.

2. None of them get the irony of being rude, obnoxious, and intentionally offensive to religious people, but descrying such conduct when directed at them. They don't think it's the same thing. Look at Carrier's unfortunate article -- he thinks that it is "appropriate" to berate and offend the religious, because, well, it's genuinely appropriate therefore a moral imperative. T-shirt's saying "i am not a Skepchick" are definitely inappropriate, and that anyone who does not see how that distinction makes sense, well, is disgusting and has no place in the movement.

That is what those folks really believe. It's so much fail, it's hard to wrap one's head around it...

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Gerald McGrew » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:23 pm

I wonder though...

The new-atheist vs. regular atheist divide was supposed to be a schism between people like Dawkins who would say really provocative things and atheists who felt such rudeness was counter-productive. But overall, AFAIK there were no separate conferences between new atheists and regular atheists; everyone generally went to the same events and shared the stage. Sure there was disagreement that sometimes got a bit heated, but it was centered around a strategic issue and there really weren't a lot of calls for actual segregation.

This somehow, feels a little different. In this case, it seems like the "atheist plus" people have taken a very early step to demonize any atheists who don't join them. This isn't the previous "I think ur doin it wrong" debate, this is "If you're not a plus, then you're a woman-hating, rape apologist and we want absolutely nothing to do with you". That's very different both in terms of degree and tangible effect. If the plus people really do think the rest of us are evil and want nothing to do with us, how can they justify going to the same events and sharing the stage with us?

I think I'll start an "atheist green" movement that's centered around environmentalism. And if you don't join, then you must be an earth-hating, Koch Brothers apologist whom I cannot stand to be around.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:29 pm

Well, it is plainly different.

But, at bottom, what they're doing is implicitly calling D2H2 and their devotees "misogynists" and "old white guys of privilege." The idea is to marginalize and emasculate D2H2, and then fill in the void with --- Myers and Atheism Plus. They then feel they can control the conversation, and they will have the power to do what has been done by Skepchicks now for a year -- purge the sinners and the disloyal.

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Robert_S » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:31 pm

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!


Five pages and counting of Google hits on Atheism Plus. :coffee: Well done to the lovers and the haters, It has gone viral!
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Jason » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:38 pm

Robert_S wrote:LOLOLOLOL!!!!!


Five pages and counting of Google hits on Atheism Plus. :coffee: Well done to the lovers and the haters, It has gone viral!
I blame CES. He's been banging on and about Skepchicks for months. :coffee:

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:42 pm

PordFrefect wrote:
Robert_S wrote:LOLOLOLOL!!!!!


Five pages and counting of Google hits on Atheism Plus. :coffee: Well done to the lovers and the haters, It has gone viral!
I blame CES. He's been banging on and about Skepchicks for months. :coffee:
Mobilizing the troops!

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by SteveB » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:46 pm

PordFrefect wrote:
Robert_S wrote:LOLOLOLOL!!!!!


Five pages and counting of Google hits on Atheism Plus. :coffee: Well done to the lovers and the haters, It has gone viral!
I blame CES. He's been banging on and about Skepchicks for months. :coffee:
In more ways than one. :tissue:
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Pappa » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:49 pm

Nibbler wrote:
PordFrefect wrote:
Robert_S wrote:LOLOLOLOL!!!!!


Five pages and counting of Google hits on Atheism Plus. :coffee: Well done to the lovers and the haters, It has gone viral!
I blame CES. He's been banging on and about Skepchicks for months. :coffee:
In more ways than one. :tissue:
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:54 pm

Man, I knew I had some detractors around here, but...jeez...that's really hitting low.... :what:

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Robert_S » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:59 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Man, I knew I had some detractors around here, but...jeez...that's really hitting low.... :what:
Ain't nothin' wrong with actually being attracted to the object of your obsession. :{D
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by SteveB » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Man, I knew I had some detractors around here, but...jeez...that's really hitting low.... :what:
I can't not tell a joke when it presents itself like that. Victim of causality/opportunity, nothing personal. :console:
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by rachelbean » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:00 pm

The thing that bothers me about the whole "you're with us or against us, pick a side" bullshit is that it's just not true. If you want to draw lines, go for it, and declare that those standing on whatever side are this and that and I'll shake my head at you like the idiot you are. I don't have to declare anything. I don't have to pick one of two imaginary sides in your self-obsessed, self-made war. I don't actually care who the "leaders" of whatever the newest coolest version of newest new atheism are or what they think I should believe.

I'm here on ratz because I got booted off RDF when it closed down and luckily I met some really awesome people that I wanted to keep hanging around and talking to. I was at RDF because I absolutely love Richard Dawkins the evolutionary biologist and found the forums while wanting to discuss those ideas. I do not consider myself part of "the atheist community" or "movement", I don't believe in god(s) and I tend to get along with other people who also don't believe in god(s) and have an interest in evolutionary biology and space and beer and cheese, but am perfectly fine with people who are not atheists and also like those things.

All that to say all of this stuff is just really silly to me, and while annoying, doesn't make me feel any need to "stand up" against anything. All I have to do is sit here and be reasonable and be glad that they are labeling themselves in a way that makes it easier to disassociate if anyone asks...which they probably won't, because I don't know anybody in real life - outside of forum members - who have the faintest clue what the "atheist community" is.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:06 pm

Robert_S wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Man, I knew I had some detractors around here, but...jeez...that's really hitting low.... :what:
Ain't nothin' wrong with actually being attracted to the object of your obsession. :{D
...except for the fact that not a one of 'em are "attractive" in any way, whether physically, intellectually or via a good personality. They're more like penis Kryptonite.

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:09 pm

Rachel, your post is fantastic, especially the last paragraph, and the most salient fact is probably the last sentence. Indeed, not many people care about this stuff.

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Sælir » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:09 pm

rachelbean wrote:The thing that bothers me about the whole "you're with us or against us, pick a side" bullshit is that it's just not true. If you want to draw lines, go for it, and declare that those standing on whatever side are this and that and I'll shake my head at you like the idiot you are. I don't have to declare anything. I don't have to pick one of two imaginary sides in your self-obsessed, self-made war. I don't actually care who the "leaders" of whatever the newest coolest version of newest new atheism are or what they think I should believe.

I'm here on ratz because I got booted off RDF when it closed down and luckily I met some really awesome people that I wanted to keep hanging around and talking to. I was at RDF because I absolutely love Richard Dawkins the evolutionary biologist and found the forums while wanting to discuss those ideas. I do not consider myself part of "the atheist community" or "movement", I don't believe in god(s) and I tend to get along with other people who also don't believe in god(s) and have an interest in evolutionary biology and space and beer and cheese, but am perfectly fine with people who are not atheists and also like those things.

All that to say all of this stuff is just really silly to me, and while annoying, doesn't make me feel any need to "stand up" against anything. All I have to do is sit here and be reasonable and be glad that they are labeling themselves in a way that makes it easier to disassociate if anyone asks...which they probably won't, because I don't know anybody in real life - outside of forum members - who have the faintest clue what the "atheist community" is.
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